On the defeat of hitler - "Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again" (Bertolt Brecht - The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui)
Should we permit those who would deny free speech to others because of their colour or religion to enjoy freedom of speech themselves? I am speaking of course about the decision of the BBC to allow the leader of the British National Party Nick Griffin to appear on its so called flag ship political discussion programme ‘Question Time’ The BBC have decided that having 2 MP’s elected to the European Parliament makes them legitimate and therefore they should be allowed on the programme. I think the BBC are being disingenuous here; on the one hand they say that being elected by the voters gives the necessary legitimacy but; only it would appear if the BBC decides that the political body you are elected to is deemed by them to be one that they in some way favour; if they are saying winning a democratic political election in Britain gets you their approval then why have they never allowed democratically elected BNP local councillors to appear on Q.T. or the many left wing parties who get elected? does anyone remember Sinn Feinn's democratically elected politicians being banned from everywhere including the BBC, this stinks of Janus faced double standards; Orwell's ministry of Truth based on the BBC for whom he worked is still resonating and the clocks are once again striking 13.
This is another step in the downward spiral of the once great institution. They could not allow a mercy appeal for medical aid for suffering children in Gazza after its partial destruction by Israel and they allow a fascist organisation to be represented on their programme. Our money will be spent on allowing this racist malcontent to speak to the nation, they could have refused on the grounds that they discriminate against non white people who are not allowed to join the collective bunch of bullies and thugs which they call a political party, something that they are now being forced to rectify; or better still they could have just said no!
What are we agreeing to when we accept Nick Griffin on to Q.T. this is a man who denies that the Holocaust existed, he is a self declared fascist and a convicted thug. Survivors who fought Hitler; Jews who survived and lost loved ones to fascism and many other decent people are outraged by this the BBC has gone for a ratings rise and are shamed by this. Those who say that they should be exposed to publicity are wrong the BNP will manipulate this and people will not be enlightened by the programme. People never are; it is not a serious political programme it is a three ring circus despite the pathetic attempts of the oh so talented Dimbleby family member David to lend it gravitas; he simply can’t lend what he doesn’t have; his dad Richard will be spinning in his grave.
The way to deal with scum like this is not to allow them on to TV and to ban them as an illegal political party and jail them when they raise their ugly heads to protest; we don’t need to wait to be shown how evil and depraved they are we already know; do you wait for a foaming rat to bite you or do you just kill it before it gets the chance? These knuckle dragging goons would have supported the Nazis in the last war what more do we need to know.
Saturday, October 17, 2009
QUESTION TIME - THE BNP - AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
Posted by Cllr Terry Kelly at Saturday, October 17, 2009
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I think you give too much credence to Question Time. It is not a reflection of peoples' opinion in this country, it is not even a reflection of political opinion. Of course the bnp will flag it up as a legitimate recognition - as would George Galloway if he appeared for his very dodgy party.
Read the Observer today - a few articles there put it all into perspective.
well we can only hope that he makes an arse of himself and his beliefs, just like his Scottish counterpart, Gary Raikes, did when i sent him an email earlier this year.
Dont suppose you'll be interested in it, but have a look anyway:
sorry wrong link!!
I think I made these points in my post; if Q.T. was a proper political programme which actually shone a light on everyone’s views it wouldn’t be so bad but it doesn’t; that’s why no one will learn much about Griffin’s obnoxious views.
It will give him a national platform to spout populist trash.
I share a lot of Galloway’s views but he would still be in the Labour Party if he had not been overlooked for high office; thwarted ambition; jealousy and a massive ego; that’s George; a great pity really.
Why are 'Populist beliefs' trash, Councillor?
Terry, STALIN supported the Nazis in the last war! That is fact, supported by evidence. Where is the evidence that Griffin would have done the same and that he denies the holocaust?
Also, the sins you attribute to Griffin, are remarkably similar to those things you have accused H.M. and most of the aristocrcy of being guilty of.
You really claiming they are all tarred with the same brush, Councillor?
Griffin will go for the lowest common denominator when he is being populist and the trash will be based on what he sees as populist support for his odious policies on matters such as immigration and capital punishment. Populist trash.
Yes and Britain appeased Hitler and the gibbering half wit king who abdicated supported him along with a great many of the aristocracy. The top people’s paper the Daily Mail also gave the Nazis the thumbs up.
I take it you don’t agree that Griffin is a Nazi/Fascist then? You must be a great comfort to him and the BNP.
Whoa boy. Before you come over all Marie Antoinette, remember - the 'lowest common denominator,' the Little People, put Labour in power and made you a Councillor.
In case it passed you by, most people in this country want to bring back the death penalty and cut back on immigration, but none of the major parties have the guts to commit to it.
And didn't your other supporter, Hain, get mixed up with a mob who thought it ok to cut the brake pipes of those who disagreed with them?
Councillor Kelly I believe your stated views on H.M, her family and Lady Thatcherto be vile and obscene, but I will defend your right to hold those views.
You, on the other hand, would gag anyone who holds views you disagree with.
The lowest common denominator can be found anywhere and at any level it’s bigoted to suggest otherwise; Bring back hanging; cut back on immigration; support for the BNP I think we have your number.
“You, on the other hand, would gag anyone who holds views you disagree with.
If it was fair comment I wouldn’t be publishing the c**p that you write would I?
Do try to make sense it makes it a bit more challenging for me if you can manage it.
I'll ask you again, where is your evidence that Griffin would have supported the Nazis, or that he denies the Holocaust?
Kelly @ 12.37
Councillor, why are those who disagree with your views bigotted, racist or homophobic?
Just asking, you understand.
Terry @ 12.42
You publish the c**p I send you because it isn't going to impact on the Labour vote, whereas you, the Orange Hain and the rest of your bent,incompetent party are panicking because giving the BNP air time to appeal to 'the lowest common denominator,' (Your words) will cost Labour seats.
Are you suggesting that he is not these things as well as a racist; a homophobic bigot; an anti Semite a fascist and a convicted thug? If you are writing back in support of Griffin you will have to identify yourself otherwise you will not be printed. I will not print anything sympathetic to Griffin or the BNP from anonymous sources.
I didn’t say they were.
Not suggesting anything Councillor, simply asking you for evidence of your claims. For all I know, they could be true, but you made the allegations, you prove them.
I don't expect you to agree with what I'm saying, but please let me know if you understand the point I'm trying to make.
McCarthyism in the USA destroyed many great socialist policies and put back the progression of the USA's socialist agenda by many years, as people like yourself were accused of communism and unable to preach their true political agenda.
Unless elected politicians are given a platform on which to speak and debate their policies, the people who are denying them the right to do so are not protecting the public from them, but affirming their support.
The BBC were not correct about the Gaza affair, nor were they necessarily wrong on other occasions - but if one was to judge anyone/thing by their previous actions it's impossible not to find fault.
I honestly believe that what the BBC did was in the best interests of the country, and it's freedom loving citizens, and I hope that despite the knee jerk reaction by many politicians, you'll see that the solution is short term, not long term.
Griffin may be the current 'Hitler' in relation to the quote you cite.. but that quote also says to look at the bigger picture, and the battle is not always one by fighting what's put in front of you, but by suffocating what's behind it.
'I didn't say they were.' (Racist etc)
See your reply to 'Anonymous' @ 5.28.
As fine an example of censorship and bigotry as ever I did see.
The fact that I print the C**p you send as I’m now doing again proves that I don’t want to gag those who disagree with me; which is what you accused me of right?
You think that it is necessary for me to prove that Griffin is a Nazi and a Holocaust denier;why;don’t you believe it ?
Andy – I do understand what your point is and I accept your sincerity but I disagree with you.
McCarthyism was an attack on those deemed to be “Un American” an impossible thing to prove or disprove.
“Unless elected politicians are given a platform on which to speak and debate their policies, the people who are denying them the right to do so are not protecting the public from them, but affirming their support”
I am saying that these people should not be allowed to stand for election; the idea that anyone can stand for election in a democracy is risible. Would you defend the right of a party called “The British Hitler Party” to stand? How about “The British Party of Child Abusers”? Or “The Tinned People for Cannibals Party”?
If someone were to revive “The British Union of Fascists” of Mosley fame; do they get to stand as well?
If saying no to these rats makes me undemocratic in the eyes of you and some others then I am prepared to live with it.
If someone wants to write to me in support of Griffin and the BNP I will print it if they identify themselves; you said I regard everyone who disagrees with me as being bigots; racists etc. which is not true is it? My willingness to print something in support of a group which I find vile makes me rather honest and tolerant rather than bigoted and censorious. No matter how stupid you get I tolerate you don’t I?
Kelly @ 5'50
'I tolerate you, dont I?'
Actually, no, you dont. Earlier this year you banned me for saying roughly the same things about some emerging African nations that you say about Israel.
You, Bonny Lad, were not being anti-Semitic in any way, simply offering constructive criticism. I, on the other hand, was being racist!
Dual standards, Councillor, you should be in the SNP
It’s time to move on and stop clutching at straws; you lost this argument 3 posts ago.
Thanks for the clear and honest answer. As much as it pains me to say it, I believe that if the majority of our nation saw fit to elect a party that believed in something as abhorrent as what you've listed, then it's not a country that I would wish to be associated with, and therefore seek citizenship elsewhere.
Until then, I believe that the country should be educated, through debate and the disclosure of how our apathy can put such extremists so close to power. By banning it, and forcing such activities underground, only invites suspicion for moderate sympathisers among whosoever is left permitted to speak.
Were it that communists were banned from speaking freely, then the suspicion would land on the shoulders of their closest moderate sympathisers -thus preventing the nation from freely debating socialist policies without the seed of doubt in their minds.
However, I fully understand that you and I share very different views on the subject, and that reconciling the two does not appear to be immediately reconcilable. I would hope though that you'd have enough faith in your fellow citizen's judgement to suspect that their sympathies do not lie with such extremists, but the majority of support - even now for the BNP - is more from misguided people disengaged and ignorant of how the political system works, in addition to the apathy of the core 'moderate' voice of the country - rather than an increase in our society of people who are inherently fascist.
(Andy Loughran) 14:53
“Were it that communists were banned from speaking freely”
Not a good analogy; do you know that there is a perfectly legal Communist Party of America?
I draw the line at some people being given democratic rights; such as the BNP they are not entitled to them. Communist and other left wing groups and parties have been banned in parts of the world before but always for ideological reasons mainly by right wing dictatorships. The BNP and other fascist groups are a different kettle of fish altogether.
Sure, there's a perfectly legal party. But there's also a perfectly legal BNP party in the UK, and as much as I find their views abhorrent - the public have a right to know the views. Were I to live in an area where the BNP currently hold seats, then be I a socialist or not, these guys are representing me. If their voice is not heard, challenged and ridiculed in an open arena - then detractors of the BNPs speech are preventing me from exercising my freedom of speech. Thus the daisy chain continues.
That's what I have a problem with. If you deny one extremist group their views, there will then be a precedent to deny other extremists - whether they be socialist extremists, or fascists.
(Andy Loughran) 27/10/09
Since Q.T. Griffin has been on a radio talk show from Hamilton and is out on the doorstep today in Glasgow, his platform is now more secure than ever.
I object to fascist organisations being given that platform to peddle lies and act respectably to gain support for their racist ideologies which sent millions of Jewish people to their deaths?
The harm done to multiracial communities; Gay people: Refugees: Jews and minorities far overshadows any benefits of allowing the vile thugs publicity.
I doubt that there is much more to say between us on this subject.
I believe that Mr Griffin was shown to be what he really is with his appearance on Question Time, and the video mentioned during the programme puts beyond all doubt how vile and abhorrent this man's views are, and those whom he represents.
Without this exposure and media attention would public awareness of this video been so widespread?
I hope the BNP go down like a lead baloon as soon as possible, and I support any acceptable protests against their organisation - but I also believe gagging them since their recent successes would be dangerous, and that through Nick Griffin's presence on QT that Baroness Warsi and Jack Straw were prompted into addressing the exact question that has led to the BNP's rise.
Hopefully now they'll be able to address it properly with policy and quash the BNP.
(Andy Loughran) 29/10/09
“Hopefully now they'll be able to address it properly with policy and quash the BNP”
It was my intention to print you without comment from me as we are repeating ourselves but I can’t let this line pass.
What policy do you mean? We already have immigration policies and anyone who wants to discuss the subject is free to do so. The House of Commons and other public forums are free to do this; what is missing?
What is missing is an option to reduce the population growth of the country.
I don't think it's a good option, and not one I'd vote for; however, one of the more moderate parties needs to make the move, else what's the point in having political parties - they need to provide a spectrum of choice, rather than just 'a different set of cronies'.
(Andy Loughran) 16:14
I think with respect you are being persuaded by the siren voices of the right; I don’t believe there is any need for population reduction we are the fifth richest country in the world. The problem is that the riches are owned by the few not the many; I do see a great need for wealth redistribution. Alleged over population is a smoke screen being used by the right wing and people like the BNP.
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