“If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs....There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only know but one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”
That quote is not mine but, I agree with it completely, it wasn’t Yasser Arafat and it wasn’t a Hamas spokesman, it was from David Ben Gurion the first prime minister of Israel, the old Zionist thug at least told the truth.
Children suffering from malnutrition and the ailments that accompany it are dying in Gaza, these are children remember, not gunmen, bombers or insurgents, just children. Just recently these kids as well as other frail elderly people had cause for hope, word had spread that a relief ship was on its way to the Gaza Strip, mothers and fathers saw a chink of light, perhaps their children would survive, these parents are distraught having to watch their beloved children wasting because of hunger and dying for want of simple medicines. Food, medicine and clothing were on their way, international agencies had gathered together to fund a ship to carry life saving materials to Gaza, the aid did not arrive, the suffering would continue.
Israel decided that the ship would not be allowed to sail to Gaza, Israel decided that the children and old and sick would continue to suffer and die, this is being done by the survivors of the Holocaust, it beggars belief that the Jewish people who suffered so much could treat innocent children this way but that’s what they are doing.
They are inflicting “collective punishment” on a whole people, not only is this illegal under international law it is an act of barbarism, in addition Israel prevents the Palestinians in Gaza from using power by refusing to allow the delivery of spare parts for it’s power plants, this causes black outs which make the medical situation worse, they are bringing shame on decent Jewish people all over the world.
This is the “Holy Land” and this is the season of “Peace and Goodwill” though not for Palestinians, in Bethlehem of all places the Palestinians live under the lash of Israel, they can not travel without the say so of Israel and the “little Town” is surrounded by soldiers and the infamous “Apartheid Wall” They are prisoners in their own land where generations of Palestinians have lived for thousands of years, remember Jesus, Mary and Joseph were Palestinians. There must be millions of Jews all around the world who abhor what Israel is doing, why don’t we hear their voices, when will they stand up and shout ‘enough’ ? On the front page of this blog there is an appeal for aid to the Palestinian people, I urge everyone to assist them and also to write to your politicians to protest at this nefarious and immoral treatment of innocents.
Saturday, December 06, 2008
PEACE ON EARTH? A RIGHT LOAD OF OLD SWADDLING.
Posted by Cllr Terry Kelly at Saturday, December 06, 2008
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I have a question Gaza shares two borders one with Israel and one with Egypt.
Both countries have a security wall in place. Israel has no control over the wall between Egypt and Gaza. If they chose to the Egyptians could remove that wall and aid could be passed onto the Palestinians. They choose not to.
So why is it only Israel is singled out for blame and is accused of setting up an "apartheid wall".
You don’t seem to have addressed any of my criticisms of Israel, Egypt is a smokescreen for people who refuse to condemn Israel.
Egypt is not occupying Palestine nor is she doling out collective punishment to elderly frail people and little children, it’s Israel that’s doing that, they are war criminals, they are deliberately killing innocent children.
You also seem to have missed the bit where the old gangster Ben Gurion agrees with me, how did you manage that ?
So what, exactly and precisely, would you do with all those Jews, Councillor? I mean, what do you have in mind as a, er, final solution to this imbroglio?
(David Duff) 07/12/08
You clearly fall into that camp which shouts “anti Semitism” when anyone criticizes Israel, it’s pathetic and it’s not a valid argument.
What I would like to see (but won’t) is justice done by restoring pre. 19 48 Palestine, the return of all refugees and an end to the crime that is Israel.
Jews along with anyone else who applies successfully to live there would be welcomed, as Palestinians, just like the 3 famous Palestinian Jews, Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
What I would settle for because this terrible crime is not going to be remedied is pre. 19 67 borders with no illegal settlements, the return of refugees, no apartheid wall and Palestine as an equal state, another word for all that is "Justice"
I wonder if anyone else has ever suggested this?
Egypt is guilty of inaction, and of standing back and allowing these attrocities to continue. Egypt should quite rightly stand accused of allowing the continued presence of an "apartheid wall" However, Israel is by far the worst culprit, and I agree that the point David Duff makes is purely inflammatory; clearly you are looking to throw accusations of anti-semitism instead of standing up and condemning the treatment of Gaza by Israel.
The religious occupancy of a country should not protect it from crisicism, particularly when it is responsible for such humanitarian crises.
I do not accuse you of anti-semitism, Councillor, for the simple reason that I couldn't care less if you are, or you are not. I have absolutely no views concerning the rights or wrongs of this particular dispute because I am perfectly content in the certitude that there are plenty of both to be shared around all parties.
However, what I am curious about is what would you do now, today, given that Israel is surrounded by millions of Arabs whose sole desire is to kill every last one of them, men, women and children - and, yes, perhaps they deserve it - but is that the result you would wish for? I ask because it is wishful thinking bordering on the criminally insane to believe that somehow these two sets of people are going to suddenly declare 'peace 'n' love' and live happily ever after! In other words, what you wish for is one thing, what is possible is something else. If I may quote my old (Scottish) mother, opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble is a waste of time and breath.
How about a post on Zimbabwe?
Not content with starving his people to death Mad Bob now denies his peope are dying from Cholera.
By the way did you happen to watch Louis Theroux's Law and Order in Johannesburg on Sunday? Your mate Mandela has left a right legacy hasn't he?
(David Duff) 08/12/08
“I do not accuse you of anti-semitism” your reference to the “final solution” was rather obvious, it’s what passes for argument with people like you.
“I have absolutely no views concerning the rights or wrongs of this particular dispute”
No surprise there then, why should innocent children dying while they are being denied access to simple life saving facilities concern you?
“given that Israel is surrounded by millions of Arabs whose sole desire is to kill every last one of them, men, women and children”
I couldn’t make you up could I? Straight out of the ‘simple book of Zionist propaganda’
Was it your “Old Scottish Mother” who taught you to look the other way when injustice and cruelty was being done?
(Daniel Dravot) 10:03
Zimbabwe is a frightful place and Mugabe should stand down.
South Africa will take a long time to recover from the evil Apartheid Governments which ruled them, the damage done by the white supremacist thugs is deep and long lasting, your comment on Mandela is quite revealing, you unwittingly paint a very disturbing picture of yourself.
Now do you want to comment on my piece about Gaza and Israel?
Er...dont millions of Arabs want to wipe out the Jews then? I must have misunderstood the situation.
Many thanks for your insightful, thorough and unique take on the Middle East.
"...your comment on Mandela is quite revealing,..."
Indeed. It was Mandela that told F.W. de Klerk that he would make the country ungovernable.
Nelson certainly made good on that promise. Mark these words, Councillor. By 2020 South Africa will be in the same parlous state as Zimbabwe.
And still you avoid answering the only really important question: what would you do now?
Forget about attacking me. If you really care as much as you protest that you do, what would be your plan given the current situation. Not, please note, a situation that you might wish for, but the cold, hard reality of the 'now'.
Forget the insults, as you say, there is a real tragedy ongoing, so give us your plan for a way out.
In your opinion, is S Africa a better place to live now than it was, say, when Barnard was pioneering heart surgery there and the people who now rule were being given university educations?
(Daniel Dravot) 09:35
I am confident that the wishes of people like you re. South Africa will be dashed no matter how much you wish it.
You should crawl back under your stone and leave decent people to deal with South Africa’s problems; you people lost, get over it.
Clearing away Apartheid was like clearing away bubonic plague, unfortunately though it still has carriers.
(David Duff) 10:33
“so give us your plan for a way out” Well no pressure their then eh ? is this your idea of a joke?
If you are familiar with the Middle East which I seriously doubt considering this comment, you might consider the attempts that have been made over the years by the most powerful people in the world to bring peace and justice to the region.
Israel is a law unto itself and the International Community, particularly America will some day have to put a stop to their crimes, justice for Palestine will have to be forced on Israel and the rest of the world will have to do it,
I know what should happen if justice and decency are to be achieved but I can’t make it happen, I can only keep arguing and writing about it.
“Forget about attacking me”
How can I not attack you when you write drivel like this, I will if you will, get a grip.
South Africa was always a better place to live if you were the right colour that is what made it the abomination that it was.
Your remark about university is an insult made by an obvious dullard; you didn’t mention the Townships, the Hangings, the Oppression, the Pass Laws, the Families forced apart.
Those who supported and profited from this evil system will roast in hell if there is such a place.
Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:26:00 PM
My take on the Middle East is not unique, yours by contrast is simplistic in the extreme.
Not every Arab wants to kill israeli's nor is every Israeli a Zionist criminal, if only it was as simple as you appear to be.
So you do not have a plan other than hoping that the USA will force Israel to surrender. Please do not hold your breath waiting for that to happen, Councillor! And even if one day the USA did cut off all security and diplomatic support for Israel, please remember it has the Bomb. After the events in Europe in the early 1940s there is absolutely no chance of Israel ever surrendering to anyone again. If they believe they are likely to go down, and knowing the fate that awaits them at the hands of their enemies, they will take everyone down with them.
I understand your all too human feelings, even if they have led you to wrong conclusions, but if you are a true humanitarian it behoves you to apply cold-blooded rationality to this hideously difficult and dangerous problem, not, if you will allow me to repeat myself, just opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble!
What a delusional grasp of reality you have councillor - in South Africa today by the time a young African girl reaches the age of 10 she is likely to have been raped at least twice in her life, have AIDS or have at least 3 family members who are HIV positive.
The same child will not have been to school, is unlikely to receive a full primary education let alone go on to secondary school. Has no access to healthcare and will be dead before she reaches her thirtieth birthday.
You may wish to hide behind the rhetoric of the past. Those of us who really care about the African people prefer to speak out against the complete collapse of the country into anarchy. No-one wants a return to the dark days of apartheid South Africa. However, the current regime have no clue about governance, maintenance of public service infrastructure or law and order.
Not worry Councillor, you keep bleating on about the SNP ay, I'm sure the Africans will sleep better knowing that a fat Scotch bigot is still living in the past.
(David Duff) 10/12/08
This is no argument at all; you are an apologist for evil and injustice.
I have been involved in the campaign for justice in Palestine for approx. 30 yrs. And I know that there are millions of people all over the world who take the same attitude as I do to the crimes of Israel, many of them brave people within the borders of Israel as well as Jewish people around the world who are ashamed of Israel.
We will continue to campaign and support the Palestinians and their fight for justice while you and your old mum look the other way.
(Daniel Dravot) 11/12/08
Your description of South Africa today is completely fanciful and certainly suggests that you do not live in Britain or America, either that or you don’t or perhaps can’t keep up with the news.
You don’t have any suggestions about who should be ruling S.A. perhaps you hanker for the good old days of white supremacy and the highest rate in the world of hangings but hold on, at least the trains ran on time didn’t they, and people knew their place right?
With reference to your personal insults, I am not in a position to say anything about what you look like; I am obliged therefore ( for my sins) to concentrate on the state of your mind.
As it happens, I'd agree that the anti-semitism card is played far too often when Israel's foreign policy is questioned. Since Israel is not a Jewish state, but a secular democracy, anti-semitism doesn't enter into the debate. However, your constant reference to war crimesi is highly questionable. Israel is not at war with palestine or palestinians. It simply carries out acts of aggression against them, acts which over tne years have prompted some equally appalling responses. Israle is in my opinion guilty of many braeches of international law, but war crimes I'm afraid are not some of them.
War Crimes: Any of various crimes, such as genocide or the mistreatment of prisoners of war, committed during a war and considered in violation of the conventions of warfare.
Long time no correspond. My time in Burma came to an end a few months ago but the work their continues - so many displaced people and the local government is in disarray.
Just been to South Africa and Botswana to assist with the displaced Zimbabweans. It just makes me weep to see these poor people fleeing the complete collapse of Zimbabwe. South Africa is not much better and heading the same way fast. Corrupt officials, corrupt police and healthcare available only if you can pay...the only hope is the new political party such is the disenchantment with the ANC ruling party.
(Jim Lewis) 16/12/08
Palestinians started fighting against Israel when they took their country, read David Ben Gurion at the start of my article, there is no doubt whatsoever who was and is the guilty party here, and that includes Britain.
“War Crime” is as good a phrase as any to describe the deliberate collective punishment of a whole people including innocent elderly as well as non combatants and helpless women and children.
Burma, South Africa, Botswana and Zimbabwe ! what did you do in the afternoon ?
"Burma, South Africa, Botswana and Zimbabwe ! what did you do in the afternoon ?"
Phone around the pharmaceutical companies for donations of medical supplies and a bit of filing.
Are you still wearing your underpants over your trousers?
It might seem somewhat pedantic, Terry, but there's a good reason why I think it's important to distinguish between war crimes and other breaches of international law. To prosecute war crimes, you'd need to proceed through a war crimes commission. Since no officiaL state of war exists, no commission would ebtertain the idea. However, where one might have cause for some hope, albeit not much would be through the UN Security Council, Israel presently standing in breach of a large number of resolutions, mostly in reference to the Occupied Territories. That's the only place where one might hope to press one's case. That's why I sugest that it's unhelpful to use the phrase 'war crimes'. It might surprise you to know that in your utter condemnation of Israeli actions in Palestine. One other little glimmer of hope is the fact that a large and growing movement within the Israeli citizenry determined to force thei government into an equitable peace with their neighbours. Who knows where that might lead. Just look at the effect that Betty Williams and mairead Corrigan had in Northern Ireland. You might also be interested in a group of Orthodox Jews known as the True Torah Jews, who calim that zionsim is in effect contrary to the teachings of the Torah. Their website is at http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
The particualr form of democracy practised in Israel doesn't help teh situation. I think it's probably true to say that Israle has never had a majority government. It just lurches from one coalition to the next. The net effect is that, even when a leader dispoised towards a peaceful solution comes along, he can't get any meaningful work done, because there are too many opinions to be considered. however, some of the noises I hear from different groupings within Israel give me cause to hope that one day a solution will be found. I'm juts not sure if you or I will be around to see it.
(Jim Lewis) 15:59
At the risk of sounding arrogant there is nothing here that I didn’t already know, the phrase “war crimes” has a particular resonance, that’s why I and many others use it when condemning Israel.
Only world wide action including the USA will force Israel to stop their aggression and collective punishment of innocent people, the British Govt. has today issued warnings to British Citizens not to buy property in the occupied territories, that is a small start, if Apartheid South Africa can be brought to heel by world opinion and world wide sanctions then why not Israel?
"Are you still wearing your underpants over your trousers?Are you still wearing your underpants over your trousers?"
Tut tut, Councillor. I never thought you would be one to mock the work of the IRC. Perhaps this Christmas you would spare a thought for the needy and send in a donation in lieu of sending out Christmas cards.
"if Apartheid South Africa can be brought to heel by world opinion and world wide sanctions then why not Israel"
Because Israel is a nuclear superpower whereas South Africa were nuclear partners with Israel and abondoned its nuclear programme post 1994. Maybe because all the nuclear physicists left for Israel (just speculating here).
South Africa no longer has the wherewithall to be a regional influence as evidenced by Bishop Tutu's remarks yesterday.
Israel can me forced to stop the persecution of Palestine by International pressure, it only needs the political will to do it.
“Tut tut, Councillor. I never thought you would be one to mock the work of the IRC”
I never mock agencies which do good but, if you are indeed involved with these people as you say then consider them well and truly mocked.
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