It was my intention to write about Holocaust Memorial Day yesterday on the actual day which commemorates the horror of those times: I put it off because of all the abuse I’ve been taking from the liars who are targeting me with the vile and ludicrous accusation that I am an anti Semite: the bigger the lie eh? I expect that they will try to accuse me of whatever corrupt thoughts enter their minds. They will no doubt try to suggest that I am exploiting these events but: I am sure that they would want to intimidate me and prevent me from writing, that would be a victory for them: I have decided not to allow these people that victory: it would be a betrayal of those who suffered and died: over and above that I will not be silenced by liars and bullies.
There is now an issue about the history of the Holocaust and how and indeed if: it should be taught in schools: some people say we should allow it to die down; let it go: it was a long time ago etc. I disagree. I believe that every child should leave school with the knowledge of what happened: there should not be any adults walking around who are ignorant of these events. There are some seriously evil malcontents here in the UK and elsewhere in the world that would gladly follow the policies and philosophy of the Nazis if they got the chance: the British Tories sit and deal with and socialise with some of them in the European Parliament. There is absolutely no room for complacency: consider the words of the great German dramatist Brecht on the defeat of Hitler and fascism
“Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again.”
Four years ago I sat on a grass verge drinking cold beer on a beautiful summer day with some friends almost under the watch towers of the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp in Poland: it was my second visit in 3 years and I’m still not sure what made me return: perhaps it was to confirm to myself that the horror was real and of course it was. Our group had done the tour and we were now discussing what we had seen and been told by our young Jewish guide. The conversation came alive when someone asked the inevitable question ‘how could they’? I could not resist asking “could we”? and off we went: some were angry at the very thought of us upright decent British people even considering such a thing. I had made up my mind many years before that we could and did do similar things (read the history)
One of our companions was a wiry little retired Welsh miner of indeterminate age who volunteered the information that he was self educated (to a high degree) and that he was a lifelong communist: he displayed an encyclopedic grasp of history embellished with his own war experiences. The group were mainly not very enamoured with the Germans and what some saw as their ‘character’ which allowed them to do such things. The Welsh wizard in our midst then stunned us all by pouring forth the following ‘tour de force’ which I now do from memory but: I’m sure you will get his drift. He said “never mind Hitler what about Beethoven: forget Goering what about Gutenberg” he warmed to his task as he growled “F**k Himmler think about Handel and Bach, all Germans and all giants” As we piled back on to the coach we could still hear him loudly naming Marx and Engles: among others.
He opened some minds that day and forced us to think about ourselves: he was of course emphasizing that it was events and circumstances which produced the Nazis and the Holocaust and not the ‘German character’ he left us with the uncomfortable thought that perhaps we could be capable of doing such things: he was in no doubt and neither was I and that dear reader is a good example of why we must continue to remember the horrors of the Holocaust and reflect on the uncomfortable truth that it is mankind who is capable of such acts not just one nation.
I often think back to that day and I remember trying to picture what it must have been like when the Russians liberated Auschwitz 65 years ago yesterday: what went through the survivor’s minds? how did they react? Surely none of them thought they would survive? A week later we were in Warsaw walking through the Warsaw Ghetto: this time without a guide: the incredible little Welsh communist miner knew it backwards and talked us through it all. I sought out his company as often as I could and he made the holiday superb: along with others we only called him Taffy on his insistence: I don’t even know his name, I wish I could send him to every school in the country.
Thursday, January 28, 2010
65 YEARS AGO YESTERDAY - WASN'T THAT A TIME?
Posted by Cllr Terry Kelly at Thursday, January 28, 2010
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Would it be cynical to point out that this is the first year you've acknowledged Holocaust Memorial Day since you started blogging? In fact on the last two years you've chosen to use the occasion to launch attacks on ....Israel of all places.
Well actually yes it would: I’ve written about the Holocaust before: I couldn’t have told you the date though: this year my daughter was helping to run a Holocaust event at the school where she teaches: that’s how I got the date right: the event was last night.
I have attacked Israel on Holocaust day? I don’t remember but it wouldn’t occur to me not to: I find it horrible to equate what happened to people in the Holocaust with the behaviour of Israel today: it’s the main reason that I and many others feel betrayed by Israel.
Betrayed by Israel? How have you been betrayed by Israel, councillor?
Israel has had to fight for its survival (and has been the only refuge for persecuted Jews from all over the globe) for over 60 years. For much of that time Israel had to defend itself against the vastly superior forces of Arab nations intent on anihilating that tiny little state the size of Wales and driving its Jewish citizens into the sea.
Why does that leave you feeling betrayed? Please explain.
If any nation state other than Israel had had to fight for its entire existence against such overwhelming odds against it and survived and thrived you would hail its leaders and citizens as heroes.
You are fond of quotes, here is one for you to consider - PLO military leader Zahir Muhsein:
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
Having read some of your other threads you seem to have problems comprehending the written word so here is something for you with pictures.
BTW If you accuse me of being a liar, an accusation you seem to level against everyone who doesn't share your ignorant an ill informed views, please quote my 'lies' and provide evidence of inaccuracy.
PS if you are going to worry about betrayal you should worry about the betrayal of the people of Palestine by people like you.
Im sure you will get hasslefrom the Zionist mob over this. There's nothing these people wouldn't exploit to discredit anyone who speaks out against them -there's no business like shoah business.
"I find it horrible to equate what happened to people in the Holocaust with the behaviour of Israel today"
We are in agreement on that. So why have you on this blog on more than one occasion linked the Israel/ Palestine conflict with the Holocaust?
I don’t see much here that is relevant to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel: it seems just like another attempt to defend the indefensible. There really is no point in me entering into a dialogue with you about Israel: i would consider that a waste of time.
Like many others of my generation born just after the war I developed a deep sympathy for the Jews because of the horrors that they had endured: I saw them as heroic victims of injustice who showed an indestructible will to survive.
Over the years I have been forced to admit to myself that the behaviour of Israel in the Middle East conflict is appalling: I regard some of their actions a being as bad as any other brutal regimes in history, I feel betrayed by them because of that.
I’m getting a whole lot of hassle but: a cursory glance by anyone at where it is coming from will easily explain it.
These people see one thing and one thing only: I am an outspoken supporter of Palestine and I am opposed to Israel in the Middle East conflict and that is all that matters to them. Truth: fairness: justice: integrity none of it means anything to them: they are beyond reasonable debate, anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti Semitic! that's what passes for argument with them.
Why wouldn’t/ shouldn’t I link to them and other horrors?
@ Councillor Terry Kelly
"These people see one thing and one thing only: I am an outspoken supporter of Palestine and I am opposed to Israel in the Middle East conflict and that is all that matters to them. Truth: fairness: justice: integrity none of it means anything to them: they are beyond reasonable debate, anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti Semitic! that's what passes for argument with them."
Mr Kelly, who are "these people"? Who are "them"?
Point me to some examples of "Truth: fairness: justice: integrity" in any of your blog posts regarding Israel or in your replies to commenters. Is there any integrity, fairness or justice in refusing to enter into debate and simply accusing anyone who dares to say anything that contradicts your statements of being a "liar".
You say you are "opposed to Israel in the Middle East conflict" Does Israel have a right to exist?
If so perhaps you can explain why you don't also support Israels right to self-defence?
You are a hypocrite of the worst order. You accuse everyone who posts a counter argument to your ill informed statments of being a "Zionist criminal" and refuse to answer any point made that challenges your bigoted view of Israel (I wont give your rantings the diginty of referring to them as arguments because your statements are no different to those made by any other Bigot when they label all African Caribbeans as criminals or all Muslims terrorists) yet you shrilly accuse those who question your beliefs of shutting down criticsm of Israel with accusations of antisemitism.
Your cry of - "they are beyond reasonable debate, anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti Semitic! that's what passes for argument with them." - is both projection and deflection. You are not interested in debate you simply want to be able to spout your anti Israel rantings without challenge. You attempt to silence your detractors with accusations of lying, cowardice or of being "zionist criminals" with an agenda.
After demanding people provide their names and addresses, something which only the insane would post on a public place, I wonder what your next tactic will be to evade answering questions. Suggesting that your detractors go toe-to-toe with you in a pub car park perhaps?
I don't see you as a supporter of Palestine and the Palestinian people, quite the opposite.
@ Councillor Terry Kelly
"I regard some of their [Israels] actions a being as bad as any other brutal regimes in history"
You regard Israels actions as being as bad as those of Nazi Germany, the Communist Party of Kampuchea, Communist USSR and Communist China to name but a few? (or in fact the brutality of any regime which follows Marxist-Leninist ideology where human rights and the lives of innocent people are wantonly sacrificed as the means that justifies the ends)
Perhaps you can give some examples of Israels actions that are as bad as those of Nazi Germany, the Communist Party of Kampuchea, Communist USSR and Communist China.
Perhaps you might consider that this comment finds you committing all the sins that you accuse me of.
“Mr Kelly, who are "these people"? Who are "them"?”
‘They’ are the people who have lied about me and tried to intimidate me because of my support for Palestine: ‘they’ are the people who have been sending anti Semitic comments to various Zionist sites in my name and encouraging others to attack me.
“Does Israel have a right to exist?”
Is this another example of what you call debate? Israel ‘de facto’ exists whether I or anyone else likes it or not: Israel is a fact. Perhaps a more honest question from you would have been should Israel have been created? No it shouldn’t. To bring Jews to settle in a new country called Israel meant that the people who lived there had to move out to accommodate them: that is wrong and is the reason that we have never had peace there and we never will.
“your statements are no different to those made by any other Bigot when they label all African Caribbeans as criminals or all Muslims terrorists)”
Are these African Carribeans or muslims occupying someone else’s land? Destroying their culture? Knocking down their homes? Murdering their children? Turning their land into a huge prison: denying them health care? Clean water? Debate is good isn’t it?
“anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti Semitic!”
What else can I call this except a deliberate lie? Let me rewrite it for you in a truthful way, Anyone to disagrees with Israel is labelled as anti Semitic by the likes of you and the other Zionist attackers who do not want debate: that does not mean as you disingenuously suggest that all Israelis think this way: think about it.
“After demanding people provide their names and addresses”
Truth? If anyone wants to debate with me in a reasonable way I am happy to do so: when they start making unfounded accusations and hurling personal abuse I ask them to identify themselves which of course the cowards are afraid to do: I think that is perfectly reasonable, I don’t think your personal attacks on me here carry any weight unless you come out of hiding.
“Perhaps you can give some examples of Israels actions that are as bad as those of Nazi Germany, the Communist Party of Kampuchea, Communist USSR and Communist China”
Gaza! Did these and other brutal regimes kill women and old people and children in a way which was worse than Israel is doing in Gaza? Is that possible?
I do not believe that Israel enjoys the support of millions of Jews worldwide: and I believe that their continuing brutality to the Palestinians will continue to be seen as unacceptable to most people: they have to think again: the Palestinians deserve Justice.
Councillor, there is a story, perhaps apocryphal, perhaps not, of an Israeli Ambassador to the UN, saying that when Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, into the Promised Land, they stopped to have a swim in the Dead Sea. While swimming, the Arabs stole their clothes. An Arab Ambassador leapt to his feet and shout 'That's a lie! The Arabs weren't there then.'
The Israeli, very softly, said, 'My point exactly!'
So all these were not as bad as the Israel/ Palestine conflict?
Stalin's Russia : 20 000 000 dead
Nazi Germany : 20,946,000 dead
Khmer Rouge: 600,000 dead
Mao's China: Between 50 -70 million dead.
Congo: Five million.
All nicer places to be than Palestine?
You might like this;
PS there are comments missing on this thread and well you know it.
I see that the brave cyber stalkers on cif watch are on your case. Those people will bend over backwards to excuse Israel's atrocities against Palestinians, you must ignore the vile creatures.
I prefer the one about changing water into wine but: let’s imagine the story were true. Does that make it OK for a Jewish family who have lived for generations in Britain for instance to go to Palestine and take the land and home from a Palestinian who’s family had lived there for generations. Because the Jewish guy’s ancestors lived there 1,700/1,800 years ago?
You appear to be saying that Israel is guilty but not as guilty as the above because Israel hasn’t caught up with the numbers yet: a very sinister and worrying position.
A complete red herring: either stupid or dishonest. I have never called for a boycott of Jewish businesses: I called for a boycott of Israel: just as many people did to Apartheid South Africa.
I advocate the same for Apartheid Israel.
I print everything that is printable and well you! know that.
(John the Baptist) 10:43
It’s difficult to ignore them but: they certainly appear to be as you describe them.
Do you support Hamas?
Having been democratically elected to rule in Gaza they have my support.
You support Hamas because they were democratically elected.
Mugabe was also democratically elected, along with Kharzai, Saddam and Ahmadinejad.
Presumably all of these also enjoy, or enjoyed, your support and for the same reason?
Suspect this kind of thinking could give you a problem supporting the democratically unelected Gordon Brown?
All the American presidents were democratically elected so what does that prove? You name 4 who apparently don’t come up to your high standards: how about Bush 1 Bush 2 Reagan and Nixon?
Gordon Brown? You are showing your ignorance: British General Elections do not choose a Prime Minister political parties do that, always happy to help.
'Britsh General Election dont choose a PM.'
Labour were elected because Blair was Leader and people thought he would be a great PM.
If you believe otherwise, tell nurse to increase your medication immediately.
Having settled that, your thoughts on Pol Pot are...?
Councillor Kelly you quoted.....
“anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti Semitic!”
"What else can I call this except a deliberate lie? "
The quote “anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti Semitic!” is yours not mine and is most frequently used by those who wish to pass blatently antisemitic comments off as legitimate criticism of Israel.
Comments such as "Zionism is an evil creed it justifies any crime in the name of Israel" and "kill approx. 230 Palestinian men women and children for every dead Israeli; the Nazis used to do that: have you no shame?" (in response to the question how should Israel heroically struggle against the rockets that rain down on their heads) or accusations that anyone who defends Israel is a zionist war criminal.
I've never seen anyone in taking a contrary position to the ill informed garbage and half truths posted about Israel on sites like this claim that “anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti Semitic!”.
Can you for example explain how the comment below can in any way be regarded as legitimate criticsm of Israel?
"kill approx. 230 Palestinian men women and children for every dead Israeli; the Nazis used to do that: have you no shame?"
You say: "the Nazis used to do that". The Nazis used to do what? Kill 230 Palestinian men women and children for every dead Nazi?
Or are you equating the systematic state-sponsored extermination of six million European Jews during World War II by Nazi Germany WITH a three-week military conflict between Israel (in response to 8 years of daily rocket attacks) and Hamas of which Colonel Richard Kemp CBE said: "The IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other Army in the history of warfare" -
Or are you comparing Gaza:
....to a Nazi concentration camp:
Councillor Kelly, why mention Nazis? Unless your intention was to taunt Jews with their suffering?
"To bring Jews to settle in a new country called Israel meant that the people who lived there had to move out to accommodate them"
Your implication that Jews arrived en mass in Israel in 1948 is, to be polite, misinformed. In the 8th, 9th and 11th centuries there were major Jewish communities in Jerusalem, Tiberias, Jaffa, Ashkelon, Caesarea and Rafah. Since the 1890's Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority. In 1935 there were 400,000 Jews living in Mandatory Palestine. In 1945 there were over 600,000 Jews living in Mandatory Palestine.
Today 2.5 million Jewish citizens of Israel can trace their ancestry to Muslim and Arab lands. Their ancestors merely migrated from one corner of the Arab world to Israel. In the 1940's-50's over 1 million Jews in 10 Arab countries were stripped of their rights, dispossessed of their property and forced to leave their homelands. Today in total only 4,500 Jews remain in all of the Arab countries.
Councillor Terry Kelly said:
"Are these African Carribeans or muslims occupying someone else’s land? Destroying their culture?... Murdering their children? Turning their land into a huge prison: denying them health care?... " Taking their homes? Depriving them of their livlihoods?
There are people who say exactly that, Mr Kelly. We call them racists and bigots. Debate is good isn’t it?
You say the people you refer to as "these people" and "they" are all the people who have lied about you and tried to intimidate you because of your support for Palestine. You say ‘they’ are the people who have been sending antisemitic comments to various Zionist sites in your name and encouraging others to attack you.
Mr Kelly, you believe that everyone who takes a contrary stance to you or is offended by *some* of your comments is involved in a "Zionist" conspiracy to discredit you.
You frequently accuse "these people" of lying about you but you never, as far as I can tell, defend your accusations with proof of their many lies. What lies have people told about you, councillor Kelly?
The comments you claim were made by your impersonator were "anti-Semitic" yet the posts I read were virtually indistingushable from posts made by *you* on your blog.
"Did these and other brutal regimes kill women and old people and children in a way which was worse than Israel is doing in Gaza?"
Israel a brutal regime? surely you are mistaken. Hamas is a brutal regime as is that of their Iranian paymasters.
Hamas is opposed to peace with Israel in any circumstances - The destruction of Israel is written in their charter. In pursuit of that goal Hamas use the most evil forms of violence to destroy the peace process - Including suicide bombing that deliberately targets innocent women and children and the daily firing of Katyushas and Kassam missiles at Israeli civilian population centres, rocket attacks that continue to this day. Hamas does this hiding behind a human shield of Palestinian women and children.
In Gaza Hamas uses murder, oppression, brutality as political tools against all Palestinians who oppose Hamas and to control the dwindling number of Palestinians who support them.
Nice people you choose to support, Councillor.
Let's rephrase the question..... In *your opinion* does Israel have a right to exist? A simple yes or no will suffice.
I have rarely come across such a blatant bunch of twisted lies in one document: every corrupt: fraudulent distortion you can think of is in here: you are contemptible as well as being an arrogant pompous fool: let people who read this c**p decide for themselves.
You can try as many lies as you like: I am not an anti Semite: those who defend Israel’s brutality against the Palestinians will continue to call me that because they are forced to defend the indefensible and they substitute the foul anti Semite jibe in place of srgument.
All of your highly subjective arguments have been addressed over and over again. You are merely regurgitating the Israel line: what is the point of that?
Does Israel have the right to occupy Palestine and build settlements on Arab land? A simple yes or no will suffice.
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