Wednesday, May 13, 2009


The cultural vandals A.K.A. the SNP/Lib.Dem Cllrs. who run Renfrewshire Council have been forced in to a partial climb down over cuts to music tuition in our schools, tuition will continue as before but only in primary school, in S1 S2 the tuition will still be cut in half, congratulations are due to the parents and pupils who took up the fight but, it has to go on until the cuts are completely reversed.

Whenever I address this issue I can’t avoid letting people know what some of the SNP led administration Councillors have said. Here are some facts to consider; a pupil taking music in S1 & S2 will get one lesson a fortnight; pupils taking music in S1 & S2 prior to these cuts received one lesson a week; by my reckoning this means that today’s children taking music will; after two years in S1 & S2 have missed out on a whole years tuition. I invite any SNP/Lib.Dem. Cllrs. to explain to me if and where I am getting this wrong. Now consider this.

“No child will be disadvantaged by these savings/cuts
Cllr. Cameron SNP Education Convener.

“As convener of arts provision in Renfrewshire Council, I say that our budgetary decisions will enhance, not harm, music tuition”
Cllr. McCartin Lib. Dem. Arts Convener & deputy Council Leader”

“I would encourage you, if you have not already done so, to ensure your council is aware of the specific concerns you have raised to allow them to be taken into account in reaching future spending decisions”
Email to concerned parent from Scottish Government, on behalf of First Minister Alex Salmond urging them to lobby the SNP led Renfrewshire Coucil.

“music is not a core subject”
Cllrs. Cameron & McCartin

*** “Renfrewshire Council have advised that they currently provide weekly half hour lessons for pupils as an enhancement to the core music in all schools” from same email above from Alex Salmond.

The parents; pupils etc. who opposed these cuts were misled by the SNP/Lib. Dem. Cllrs. who told them that the decision to cut music tuition could not be reversed and it now has been. Are they ignorant of the rules or are they dishonest? People will make up their own minds. They misled people further by saying that Labour did not oppose the music cuts in the SNP/Lib.Dem.budget when the facts which can be checked are that Labour’s alternative budget did not propose any education cuts; not one penny !
This proves that the SNP/Lib.Dem. Administration are unable to defend their own policies, that’s why they caused the special meeting on this matter to be abandoned, a cowardly underhand act.

The fight goes on to fully restore music tuition in Renfrewshire Schools our children deserve nothing less.


Alex said...

Yourself and other Labour Councillors continue to decry this administration over Education, however, you cannot deny that the SNP/Lib Dems are currently (during the harshest economic climate) willing to spend 18.48% more per head of population than Labour are prepared to commit in neighbouring Glasgow.

This is a statistic that you have been unable to deny or prove otherwise.

The SNP/Lib Dem adminstration should be applauded over this commitment to Education that Labour do not seem to be able to make to the children of Glasgow who have to stand by and watch as Labour close 21 schools and nurseries without hope of replacement.

Shame on you.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Alex) 13:00

Ah Alex I thought you had run away, remind me again; you were so sure of your argument that you were taking it to the Paisley Express right? I take it you have changed your mind.

In the first year of SNP education cuts 07/08 Renfrewshire Council spent £381 per head less on primary pupils than Glasgow and for secondary pupils they spent £1,225 less per head on pupils than Glasgow. Figures for 09/10 are not yet available.

With reference to school/nursery closures Glasgow City Council have stated that any savings will be ring fenced for spending on education. That means there are no cuts proposed through these closures.

You have not challenged anything in my post about music cuts, come on son you're not in the 3rd. form debating club now.

Can you remind me what the SNP/Lib. Dem. Administration is doing with the £9 million of education cuts?

Alex said...

Are you saying that the figures that I put forward are incorrect.

Alex said...

Can you tell me how you arrived at your figures or where you found them or did you just make them up.

I staed the sources of the figures that I put forward to you.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Alex) 14:15

No, I didn’t bother checking your figures; when you stupidly leapt on the population figures I knew there was a huge hole in your argument; you see spending per head on pupils is far more relevant than spending per head of population, the overwhelming majority of whom don’t go to school or; maybe you would dispute that?

Are you saying that the figures that I quoted are incorrect? Are you really that silly, when will we see you in print then?
It’s not fair to blame me for your stupidity.

Why no comment on the music tuition scandal?
are you back in the 3rd. form again?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Alex) 14:19

I started by the number of days in the year; then I added the age of my children; then divided by my wife’s age then took away the figure I first thought of; how do you think I got them? get serious son; if you think I would pluck figures from the air you shouldn’t really be doing this.

Try Glasgow City Council Educaton Dept. ask for comparative spending per head on pupils between Glasgow City Council and the rest of Scottish councils covering the period since the SNP took over in Renfrewshire, May 2007.

Are you going to say anything about the subject of the post “cuts in music tuition”? or are you having too much fun acting the clown? What about the Paisley Express have you bottled it?

Anonymous said...

Nobody is listening to your unhinged rants Terry. I hear the SNP have embarked on a major campaign asking people at every door who they intend to vote for, and the results are outstanding. No wonder Wendy (biggest brain in the universe) Alexander is reduced to campaigning on council issues, she knows what the state of play is. Where's the Labour Cllrs one might ask in all her dog toilet/litter council campaigning photo ops? Hmmmmm?

Alex said...

Don't you remember that it was you that drew the comparison to population when you were comparing the % cut in education budget.

It seems that it doesn't suit you any longer.

In fact the comparison to population is far more relevant because it the relates to the income received from council taxes which is related to the population.

If the figures that you have concocted are correct then it must then mean that Glasgow has far less school pupils per head of population than Renfrewshire which then means that it is relatively easy to spend more per pupil.

The fact remains that per head of population Glasgow spends less than Renfrewshire.

You drew the comparison to population not me.

You are an imbecile.

Ryan Connolly said...

It seems that you have changed your tune councillor, or did you just flip your second home by any chance.

When Alex mentioned the Labour education savings in Glasgow, it was you who responded and related the cuts to the population.

He then went on to show how Labour spent on education in relation to population, however, you now wish to run away from the argument.

I suggest that you admit defeat on this one councillor as the figures are so transparent.
The laughable thing is, that you provided the figures for him, with the exception of the Glasgow education budget which he correctly quoted from the Glasgow City Council website.

Your colleagues must be squirming at your ineptitude.


Anonymous said...

TERRY KELLY : "If you insist on comparisons; how about this one.

Glasgow population 620,000 – education cuts £3.7 million.

Renfrewshire population 170,000 – education cuts £9 million."

TERRY KELLY : "No, I didn’t bother checking your figures; when you stupidly leapt on the population figures I knew there was a huge hole in your argument;"

You are making a clown of yourself son.

Alan said...

Wasn't it you that "stupidly" leapt on the population comparison in your previous dialogue with Alex re education cuts.

If it is relevant for that then it is surely relevant for this Terry.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Alex) 13/05/09
I didn’t think you would be silly enough to use population figures to pursue your argument, cost per head is what is used; don’t take my word for it ask the local authorities how they work out figures for education spending. What about this newspaper expose, it’s beginning to look like you don’t have confidence in what you are saying.

“You are an imbecile” now now son, that could get you thrown out of the 3rd. form debating club, you are a bad loser.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 13/05/09
Plenty of people are listening and will continue to do so.
“who they intend to vote for, and the results are outstanding”
Like Glenrothes you mean?
“Where's the Labour Cllrs”
Helping with things like forcing the Snp/Lib. Dems. in to a humiliating retreat on music tuition. Remember that item? The one that the SNP ran away from when they caused the special meeting on the subject to be abandoned. Wendy did great on that as well didn’t she.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Ryan Connolly) 14/05/09

“or did you just flip your second home by any chance”
“Your colleagues must be squirming at your ineptitude”

It would take someone spectacularly ‘inept’ to try to make political capital out of the expenses issue; can you think of anyone? Have you thought about why no one is banging that particular drum, are you really that thick?

My comparison between Glasgow & Renfrewshire populations in relation to education cuts was a good sound bite but the way to work out education costs is per head of pupils, that is why the councils use that method, did you not think of that?
Are you aware that Renfrewshire under the SNP/Lib. Dem. cabal now have the worst pupil teacher ratio in secondary schools in Scotland and second worst for primaries? Are you aware that Renfrewshire is 28th. out of 32 councils for primary children spending and 22nd. out of 32 for secondary pupil spending, all down to the SNP/Lib.Dems.

And you haven’t even mentioned the subject of the post ‘music tuition cuts’
Keep it coming Ryan.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Clutching at straws here, the fact is that the method of working out education spending is by per head of pupils, you and some others seem to be in the position of denying that yet this is how it’s done.

Glasgow City Council spend more than Renfrewshire council per head on their pupils – fact.
Renfrewshire council has the worst secondary teacher pupil ratio in Scotland – fact.

Renfrewshire Council has the 2nd. worst primary teacher pupil ratio in Scotland - fact.

Renfrewshire Council is 28 th. out of 32 councils for primary school spending - fact.

Renfrewshire Council is 22 nd.out of 32 councils for secondary school spending -fact

Oh and Renfrewshire Council’s SNP/Lib. Dem. administration have just cut music tuition in half which is what the post is about.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

I pointed out the difference in cuts and the populations he decided to try to prove that Renfrewshire were spending more than Glasgow using a spurious method, his method is not the correct way of identifying education spending that is what matters here, don’t take my word for it check for yourself.

Anonymous said...

You are tripping all over yourself Terry. I would suggest that you move on before any more damage is done.

Robert said...

This is brilliant Terry.

I love the "I'll just use whatever figures suits me best approach".

A true politician. I take my hat off to you.

Robert C.

Aileen said...


Can you explain why you were very keen to relate education cuts to population but not education spending.

If Glasgow are spending more per pupil and their spending per head of population is lower than in Renfrewshire it only goes to show that Glasgow must have a very low pupil/population ratio compared to Renfrewshire.

The fact still seems to remain that Renfrewshire are committing a far higher percentage of their available budget to education than Glasgow are.

It seems that Glasgow are committing 31% of their budget and Renfrewshire are committing 38% of their budget.

It would appear that Alex is correct.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 12:18

I’m touched by your concern but, I’ve told you how education spending is calculated and I have given you the figures which you can check if you wish; they are as follows:-

Glasgow spends £7247 per secondary pupil;
Renfrewshire spends £6022.
Glasgow spends £4688 per primary pupil; Renfrewshire spends £4307.

Alex tried to display Glasgow City Labour Council in a bad light by accusing them of cutting education with school closures, I’m pointing out that they are doing a better job than Renfrewshire.

In addition they are putting all money saved by their closures back in to education which of course Renfrewshire are not.
If this is damaging me I’ll risk it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Robert) 12:25
You seem to have overlooked something Robert; these are not the figures which suit me best; these are the facts; as well as being the figures and method used by councils to calculate education spending.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Aileen) 12:54

“Can you explain why you were very keen to relate education cuts to population but not education spending”

I never gave that a thought I was simply pointing out to Alex that Glasgow was far bigger and he was accusing them of making cuts while Renfrewshire were making bigger ones.

He then took it upon himself to use his own method of calculating education spending so; rather than invent my own method as he did I went to the education dept. and they supplied me with the facts.

“it only goes to show that Glasgow must have a very low pupil/population ratio compared to Renfrewshire”

I am not aware of that but I know that talking about ratios, Renfrewshire has the worst pupil teacher ratio in secondary schools in Scotland and the second worst in primaries, thanks to the SNP.

“It would appear that Alex is correct”

I don’t know; as I said I didn’t bother to check Alex’s figures he could be right but only if he uses his own method, if he uses the method that education depts. use he is wrong but maybe he is right and those who run education are wrong, maybe they should use Alex’s system, maybe he should sell it to them, maybe he should stop talking nonsense.He might want to tell the education experts that they have all got it wrong and he has got it right, remember these are not my figures; they come from the education dept.

Declan said...

Labour are trying to hammer the SNP in Renfrewshire about education whilst in Glasgow they are spending a far lower percentage of their budget on education.

This is hypocrisy at its worst


Aileen said...

It is correct that that Glasgow spend less of their budget in % terms on education than Renfrewshire.

This can be verified very easily.

Calculating how much is spent per pupil doesn't really mean much.

If you have an area with a low pupil/population ratio then the spending per pupil can look good. however, the actual budget allocation is what really matters.

Glasgow has chosen to allocate a smaller % of its budget to education than Renfrewshire. This is undeniable.

The children of Glasgow are being short changed by their council who do not really care about them.

It could have kept open the 21 schools and Nurseries that it is currently closing if it had chosen to allocate the % as Renfrewshire.

Renfrewshire should be commended for allocating such a high % of its budget to education.

Anonymous said...

Ha Ha Ha Ha I have just got to laugh Councillor Kelly sorry, it is just the claim, by Anonymous at May 13, that the SNP have embarked on a major campaign asking people at every door who they are going to vote for, very funny!

Just where are they getting the people to do this, are they paying wee boys to do this now like they have to do to deliver their leaflets at elections in Paisley ever since they back-stabbed all the activists who did all the work out of their party like myself.

It will certainly not be any of the lazy councillors that they have left or the few members they have left in this area. Obviously someone with an over-active imagination then who made this comment!

Anonymous said...

Terry, Terry, Terry, Don't despair,
one question, has Cllr Cameron claimed her second home allowance yet.

Scott Doures

Anonymous said...

Why are we debating what is going on over in Glasgow, surely its what happens in Renfrewshire is what is important. Facts - £10.3 m in cuts to education and leisure, plus the closure of two nurseries, south primary and foour libraries. There were also cuts to wardens in sheltered accommodation, price hikes for warden service, community alarms, community facilities and sports facilities. Who ist is that's standing up for Renfrewshire? I can only see the Labour Party doing that. Where is everybody else. Keep up the good work.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Declan) 14/05/09

If you take the education figures from the education authorities you find that Renfrewshire is spending less on education, you have your own figures I don’t need to make up my own I have the figures I’m given by the education Dept.

You are being deceitful and hypocritical not me.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Aileen) 14/05/09

You can manipulate stats. and figures until you get the result that suits you but I haven’t touched any figures I have taken the official stats and figures from the education authorities and reproduced them. Perhaps Renfrewshire deliberately want to look bad by publishing these results when they don’t have to, maybe that’s it.

Money saved from closures in Glasgow stays in education, in Renfrewshire it doesn’t.

We’ve got the worst pupil teacher ratios in secondary schools in Scotland and the second worst in primaries all thanks to the SNP.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 14/05/09

I’m not aware of any campaign major or otherwise; on the contrary they seem to be hiding. They went missing during the South School issue and they caused the debate on music tuition to be abandoned as well as cutting back on advertising councillor’s surgeries because they are afraid of the public.

I think their treatment of activists before and since May 07 has seen their position weaken considerably, they are ruling by fear among their own members.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 14/05/09

I keep hearing these things about Cllr. Cameron but they remain rumours. She can have as many houses as she likes it’s none of my business. Being a multiple home owner if she is indeed such a thing does not alter the fact that she is the worst Convener of Education in living memory and, she is damaging the children of Renfrewshire.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 15/05/09

The references to Glasgow are a desperate attempt by the SNP apologists to divert scrutiny from the shambles which they have managed to visit on Renfrewshire Council in 2 years.

They attempted to say “how can you criticise us when Glasgow is closing schools as well” but; such is their idiocy that they overlooked the fact that Glasgow are putting all savings back into education.

Their administration has become a joke but no one is laughing.