A recent poll for the first time ever has come up with a majority who agree with something that I have been saying for years, that is that prison as we know it does not work, this large poll follows two recent smaller polls which produced similar results 51% say prison doesn't work, a truly incredible result.
Incredible ? yes because there is no other issue which compares with crime and punishment when it comes to the rule of the mob orchestrated by the gutter red top press, no subject is used more ruthlessly to sell papers than this, non stop lurid savage headlines has been the currency used by these evil rags and yet, at last people are starting to listen to reason.
The truth is that a 25 yr sentence does not stop someone who is determined to get hold of a gun and murder someone else.
We have the highest prison population ever, approx 90,000 for the whole of Britain, people are asking why and what's the point, 80 % of them have two or more mental health problems that's approx. 72,000 prisoners that is not, repeat not, a misprint.
Should we lock up young women for a fine default and then chain them to a bed during childbirth ? I say no, also the treatment of male prisoners is shocking, locked up for long spells because of overcrowding, how would you like to open the cell door of a violent prisoner with mental health problems who has been locked up for 23 hrs staring at the wall ?
How much could be saved by a more enlightened sentencing policy which keeps people out of prison and still punishes them ? probably billions of pounds.
Much more space in prison, much more time for prison staff, more training more programmes better results, we take prisoners in just now and after 4,5,6 years they are released worse than when they came in, just think about it a prisoner goes in innumerate and illiterate and comes out 6 yrs later still innumerate and illiterate, this is madness is it not ? do we want to solve the problem of crime or are we doomed to repeat past failures.
Perhaps the public are at last beginning to see through the posturing of right wing politicians like Tory 'druggy Dave Cameron' and Kenny 'gies a drink ya Engurlish B-----d' McCaskill SNP Justice minister, it's never too late to see sense and it's long overdue.
75% of young male prisoners re offend ------------------ FACT
This can be cut by 22% using community sentencing- FACT
37% Illiterate that's 29,600--------------------------------FACT
50% addicts of one kind or another---------------------- FACT
Only 10% of addicts get treatment------------------------FACT
There are many more reasons to change but these are some of them.
Conclusion ? when a politician tells you that prison works, particularly against a backdrop of some terrible crime like right now on Merseyside he/she is lying.
Monday, September 03, 2007
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37% Illiterate that's 29,600--------------------------------FACT
I take it that you are commenting on this due to your own history of illiteracy.
Terry Mark Oaten(yes him of the Lib Dems and of the sex story in the tabloids)said some similar things to yourself with regards the penal system.
The penal system is in need of reform, many of the prisons were built in the 19th century when deportation was starting to go out of fashion.
Of course there will always be people who need to be locked up, if for no other reason than they are a danger to other people.
Of course the balance has to be between punishment for wrongdoing, which doesn't have to include prison for minor things like fines or not having a license for the telly!
But even in more serious crimes, drug programs should be brought in for all prisoners. I would argue that if they can show that they can stay off drugs and maybe have a system where they are routinely tested and keep clean then they get reduced sentences or some other "what the tabloids would call perk"
If however they do not then don't let them out early.
Again education is another carrot and stick, provide those who wish to learn with real course rather than makework, maybe even a course when they get out with a promise of a job at the end of it.
Those who dont wish to learn are the ones who end up doing the full term.
How we go about reforming the penal system, is going to be a question that has been hidden away for far to long.
Sadly I see little evidence that Mr Brown, same as the man who went before him and the grey tory who went before him, have little intrest in doing anything.
Well aside from soundbites that is. The prospect of radical reforms and spending money on criminals doesn't sit well with many voters and that short term attitude is the one that needs to be tackled from the PM down.
A part of this problem we have now is a legacy of the so called "care in the community" when people who could not cope were thrown out on the streets, or ended up there with no aftercare.
Are you worried about your future Councillor? Just kidding.
Prison works only if you properly rehabilitate the prisoners back into society. If you just lock them up then most will get sucked back into criminality and become long-term criminals. We, as a society, need to accept that someone pays their debt in prison, rather than persecuting them for the rest of their lives (i.e. a criminal record for minor offences).
Well, it’s your party that’s created the problem, so why doesn’t it sort it out? The FACTS are that we’ve had ten years of incompetence, lies and spin over what passes for crime and justice policy. Ten years worth of cronyism, useless new laws, ineffective policing, meaningless re-organisation and soft sentencing. Ten years abject failure in dealing with increasing crime and the neglect of duty regarding public safety. Labour just hasn’t got the wit or guts to do the job properly. Does it never occur to you that we have so many prisoners because we have so many career criminals who realise there’s no deterrent to their behaviour ? Your only comment worthy of support was the abandonment of short repetitive prison sentencing. It’s essential to have longer sentencing that properly reflects the crimes committed and to allow programmes of literacy to be effective. There should be no tolerance of drugs; addicts are primarily criminals, not victims. We know that drug addiction is broken in a matter of days and is acknowledged as a medically trivial matter; those who claim dependence need psychiatric help, not more drugs. But then, Labour have largely destroyed public psychiatric services through it’s cretinous handling of the NHS. The public are sick of it. Sick of your government’s tired excuses, ineptitude and complete indifference to the problem.
c4' - illiteracy ? - have you ever considered a career as a comedy script writer ?
"75% of young male prisoners re offend ------------------ FACT"
If this is true then the longer we keep them in jail the less crimes they will commit.
As to your second "FACT", I'm not sure to what the 22% refers, but keeping them in jail results in a 100% cut in re-offending rates.
Would it be too much to ask you to provide a link to this, er, remarkable poll result?
Anon - 'prison' I agree with your assessment with one proviso, I believe that the polls I refer to could be the catalyst for change and I believe that Gordon Brown has the bottle to embrace that change.
If the polls do not stay this way will he stand firm ? That's a valid question and flags up a constant dilemma, do we do the right thing in the face of a reactionary and populist onslaught or do we wilt to stay in office ?
'Care in the community' was a particularly cruel and vicious con trick played by the evil Thatcher and we are all still paying for it.
I would take our lead from the new leader of the labour Group at Holyrood, Wendy Alexander who, in the face of just such an onslaught, led by the SNP's new reactionary funder 'Holy Brian Souter' stood firm, did the right thing and won against him and the rest of the religious zealots.
so called tough guys in my own party ran and hid - I say to Gordon Brown, life's too short, do the right thing, go for it.
rumbold - Fair enough, I'm uneasy though at agreeing with you.
have you ever considered a career as a comedy script writer ?
Why yes actually
jon anderson - a wee bit subjective, still, I hope you feel better, if you do try again try an argument.
"I'm uneasy though at agreeing with you."
I agree with you for once - Prison doesn't work for career criminals.
A 25 year sentence, out in six, isn't going to put off the would-be murderer.
But hanging might do the trick.
No one hung for murder has ever offended again and in the same vein, 98% of those birched in the Isle of Man didn't re-offend either, at least not on the island.
Just to spell it out - Criminals should be Punished, the Public should be Protected, not the other way round.
David Duff - This stuff is constantly in the newspapers and on current affairs shows, Cameron has been on about it as has Salmond, they are shamelessly exploiting what happened in Liverpool. The poll was news last week in the broadsheets go and read them.
Your contention that 'keeping prisoners in jail leads to a 100% cut in re-offending rates' has a certain logic to it but it would be a pre five year old logic. Please don't engage me any further on this subject unless you are being serious.
c4' - surely you must have made you fortune.
rumbold - OK I won't make any more jokes.
Byeck - no surprises here then eh ? Hardly worth responding.
Women who commit adultery in some places get beheaded, a petty thief gets a hand amputated, we used to be like that back in the good old days.
Anyone who thinks that criminals are not punished in prison has either never been in a prison or is simply a fool.
You sound as if you qualify on both counts.
Stoning for adultery and amputation for petty theft????
Where does this happen then.....I dont think the Jews do it and we dont, so you must be talking the Sons of the Prophet.
Shame on you Terry lad.
"the posturing of right wing politicians such as Dave Cameron and Kenny MacAskill"
Unlike those champions of liberal thought David Blunkett and John Reid who have actually been responsible for the increase in prison numbers.
Whilst agree that prison reform is long overdue I'd like to see more done to prevent crime in the first place. Why are people leaving school barely able to read? Is it poor teaching? A problem with the curriculum? Other problems that have not been addressed?
I also feel that there is almost an acceptance of crime in some parts of the world. Where I live is near a 'boundry'. Gang fights take place there every Saturday without fail. Every week the police are called by myself and several neighbours yet nothing changes. Our local MP, MSP and councillors (Labour and SNP) have been very sympathetic and raised the matter at a higher level yet still all that happens is the gangs are moved on only to return each week.
Apart from the fear and stress this causes to the local communitiy my concern is that these are young teenage boys running about off their noodles on drugs and drink, often carrying knives, bottles etc. They're also putting themselves in danger. Nothing is being done to channel their energy into sport or something less destructive than violence. Good local projeccts have been shut down for lack of a few thousand pounds.
Don't get me wrong there's been a lot of great stuff done by this governmment, I voted for them in the past few elections and intend to do so again but I really feel Labour need to pull their socks up on this.
more evidence that ignoring mental health treatment leads to having to provide more prison cells can be found in the us, and the reference to "care in the community" and its legacy were exactly on point...mr. reagan led an effort in the us that has brought us similar results.
also-don't forget that effective mental health treatment is more likely to prevent future crime than long prison sentences are in preventing it-and treatment is cheaper than prison.
Byeck - I was spot on, you do qualify on both counts.
anon - 'prison No's' - Blunkett and Reid are only two in a long line of disgraceful home secretaries who chose populism because of fear of the gutter right wing press.
Cameron and Mac Askell are of the same stamp and in this case 4 wrongs don't make a right, or maybe in your world they do.
Let me try again, what is your opinion of Cameron and MacAskell's grovelling to the right on this issue ?
Karla - I agree with most of this - the problem didn't happen overnight though.
Society, which of course famously 'doesn't exist - M Thatcher' is paying the price of those dark terrible days when many people gave up under her jackboot -
This is her legacy and it will take a long time to put it right.
The key is education as you rightly identify.
fake - consultant - Prison and mental health ?
Well said that man.
Being called a fool by you has to be up there with being called ugly by Quasimodo.
But, I digress: 90,000 in prison?
Has your research indicated how many of these do not have English as a first language?
Maybe if we had a 'One strike that attracts a prison sentence and you're back to your country of origin' policy, it might concentrate their minds and halve the prison population.
Byeck - You keep sending it in and I'll keep printing it.
I don't feel the need to comment.
A wee bit subjective? I thought you'd like that. I asked a question too, remember? Why doesn't your lot sort it out? Thanks for your enquiry though, I feel fine. When you feel strong enough, try a response.
jon anderson - right here's my answer take what you have written and imagine 'your lot' instaed of 'my lot' going back over a long number of years, you're having a laugh right ?
Re "Anyone who thinks criminals are not punished in prison...is a fool."
Please see the Times on line, April 19th 2007.
Michael Sams, presently a guest of Her Majesty for murder, rape, kidnap & extortion says that pensioners are better off in chokey than outside...and he should know.
Are you prepared to bow to his - I hope - superior knowledge?
if i may, i'd like to play to the "lounge singer" in you with a request:
the movie sicko is beginning to stir discussion about our failure to provide health care for us citizens.
there will be invocations of the nhs in opposition and supporters' discussions about our future, and i truly have no real knowledge upon which to form an opinion.
would you consider offering a conversation about the benefits and failings of the nhs system?
i do get the challenges of funding, and have seen some of the parliamentary discussion of the issues of staff and capital projects funding vs. access to services from question time, but it is impossible to really understand the taxpayer, health outcome, and "customer service" experience from that small exposure.
Byeck - 'pensioners better off in chokey' does that include parasites like the Queen and Prince Philip ? No I'm not prepared bow to his superior knowledge.
However I am delighted to note that when a fine upstanding murderer, rapist, kidnapper & extortionist like Mr. Sams offers his opinion you stand four square with him.
As I said you are 'a fool'but, is it natural or do you have to practice to get to this level ?
Insulted twice in two posts! I feel I can now look Jackart, Duff, c4, Rfs and your other fine critics & sportsmen in the eye. Lads - Terry has promoted me, I'm now one of you!!
Now then, enough of this maudlin stuff. I note that you are not prepared to accept that Mr Sams has a superior knowledge of chokey to yourself and this interests me.
We know what he is inside for, but what did you do??? Are you out on licence? What are your bail conditions? Did the Parole Board know you were a Renfrewshire councillor?
I think we should be told.
Byeck - you are all welcome to each other. You deserve that promotion I know that's a terrible thing to say but,
What did I do ? It's painful to recollect but you are right I have been in prison many times, mainly for fraud as a councillor, the opportunities are enormous. I had a holiday home abroad and several cars and loads of money but somehow I felt that there was always something missing in my life, I lost it all on a turn of pitch and toss but never breathed a word about my loss.
My blessed mother used to say 'money isn't everything' and 'money can't buy you happiness' she talked absolute rubbish about lots of other things as well.
I'm no longer 'on licence' I'm free and I feel able to talk about it ever since I found god, let me advise you and your new found friends, no matter how bitter and twisted you get, no matter how low you all sink, you will not be abandoned.
I can tell you that even you lot even at the depths to which you have sunk god still loves you and will care for you no matter what, mind you if it was me I'd set fire to all of you and watch you die a slow lingering painful death but, I digress.
"Parasites like the Queen and Prince Philip ?"
Normally people of their age are retired. Her Majesty and HRH Prince Philip however still go to work everyday, brightening up the lives of thousands of people who they come into contact with. I hope that Wendy Alexander does not think the same way as you, as one day she may well have to meet Her Majesty and I hope that she is suitably respectful.
"I can tell you that even you lot even at the depths to which you have sunk god still loves you and will care for you no matter what, mind you if it was me I'd set fire to all of you and watch you die a slow lingering painful death but, I digress."
all this debate misses the point that incarceration is a very expensive way to achieve very little change in the criminal and almost no deterrence of future crime.
on both these points the science is fairly clear, and you can look to recidivism rates as a starting point.
why do criminals return to prison if prison is such a deterrent?
why do they commit crimes in the first place if prison is such a deterrent?
scotland may be different, but in the us, the cost of incarceration begins at $30,000/year for minimum security, and can be over $100,000 annually for a high security inmate.
does everyone get that we could pay to send these people to four years of college for less money than sending them to four years of prison?
that society would be far better off in the process?
but that's not the real issue. as we have discussed, improved community-based mental health treatment would be a faster and cheaper way to reduce prison populations-and to keep them down for the long term.
the only way deportations can reduce prison populations by 50% would be if half the prison population is naturalized citizens. is that the case in scotland?
on the other hand, if half the population of scottish prisons are there because of mental health issues, you could reduce populations by that amount in fairly short order-and at a major cost savings to the current system.
the point of all this: if you're looking at the problem from a taxpayer perspective, prison is the most expensive, and least effective, option to achieve safer streets.
A brilliant response to my request for info on your chokey time. It's difficult not to empathise with a man who can be so disarmingly honest about his weaknesses. (Winston had the same gift you know, but I'm not sure about Castro, Stalin or Mugabe)
Now, lets move on to your comments about Her Majesty & HRH.
A tad anti Royal there, I thought, and just a hint that you may well be a man who prefers the kind of Socialist Paradise created by the Fearsome Threesome above.
Should I be on the money with that guess, and, Heaven forbid, you're tempted to leave the fleshpots of Renfrew & emigrate to one of these fine countries, can I suggest that you dont express any opinions on the leadership quite so robustly as you do here?
The lads with the matches who tried for a massacre at Glasgow Airport....
On the one hand, we have an airport worker who ruined the survivor's wedding tackle with a fine half volley and on the other, Renfrew's Finest, who thinks a good stiff talking to and the threat of an ASBO would have done the trick.
Call me callous, but give me the half volley every time.
Fake consultant - I regard the NHS as the jewel in the crown of the Welfare State and something to be proud of.
You're request suggests a level of detailed knowledge that I don't have but I would be happy to answer any questions or offer my opinions as best I can, America offers a vision of what a hell health care can become for the 'have nots'
I would start by banning private medicine - the rich are no more deserving of good health than the poor.
Rumbold - If HRH and Phil 'go to work everyday' can I apply for their job ?
They don't brighten up my life.
I'm sure Wendy would be as respectful to her as she is with everyone.
rumbold - I was using the scatter gun method.
You and several others who disagree with me would be excluded.
fake consultant - criminals commit crimes and re-offend because they do not see themselves as part of society, prison becomes an occupational hazard, that says something about their lives and society.
80% of prisoners have two or more mental health issues, mainly untreated. that is a scandal which makes things worse.
% of prisoners who are British ? almost all of them, don't listen to 'byeck' he's a racist moron.
I don't agree that the tax payers perspective is necessarily the right one, sometimes doing the right/decent thing is costly.
byeck - 'a tad anti royal ? yes. the rest is drivel.
Byeck - That's the stuff, 'they don't like it up em Captain'
There is no one braver than a non combatant is there ?
"If HRH and Phil 'go to work everyday' can I apply for their job ? They don't brighten up my life."
I suspect that you do not possess the necessary bloodline to takeover. Even though I have never met them, they brighten up my life and you should be proud of them. They are also your ultimate bosses, so I would be careful.
"Rumbold - I was using the scatter gun method. You and several others who disagree with me would be excluded."
I do not want to set fire to you either.
Rumbold - Bloodline ? Correct but, if they were to be 'Romanoved' then all bets would be off wouldn't they ? as I said they don't brighten my life and I'm not proud of them, call me cruel but, are you really saying that you are proud of Philip ? Edward ? Harry ? The late Margaret ?
The Corgi's are brighter.
My bosses ? Yes, and they should fear me
I would hate to see you in more trouble with Salt Lake City, so I hope "racist moron" isn't a typo.
How did that wee problem finish up?
I've only seen the Sun article and would be interested in your side.
By the way, re. my post of 5th Sept,I know you dislike facts that disagree with your fantasies, but the Prison Reform Trust report 2005, says that from a prison population of 80,000, 11,200 were from ethnic minorities and 9,651 were foreign nationals.
That means in 2005, around 20,000 from 80,000 didn't have English as a first language.
As an up-date, the number of foreign nationals now inside (2007)has risen to 15,000.
I rest my case
"Racist Moron" indeed....I'm glad you dont do random insults.
"Bloodline ? Correct but, if they were to be 'Romanoved' then all bets would be off wouldn't they ?"
Actually, the crown would just pass to one of the European royal families (I forget which one).
"As I said they don't brighten my life and I'm not proud of them, call me cruel but, are you really saying that you are proud of Philip ? Edward ? Harry ? The late Margaret ?"
I am proud of Philip. Harry needs to be given time to develop. What I do not understand is that your favourite place, Cuba, is effectively a monarchy (no elections for head of state, family member takes over when head of state is ill), yet you dislike monarchy here. Curious.
Rumbold - If we 'Romanoved' them would the other parasites dare come here ?
Cuba ? you haven't been paying attention I think Cuban democracy is not like ours it's far better, 95 % turn outs would do me fine, family members taking over do you mean like the Churchill's ? The Hogg's ? The SNP royals the Ewing's ? The Alexander's ? The N. I. Paisley's.
Whether you dislike Cuban democracy or not you can't vote for the Queen.
"The Prison Reform Trust report 2005, says that from a prison population of 80,000, 11,200 were from ethnic minorities and 9,651 were foreign nationals. That means in 2005, around 20,000 from 80,000 didn't have English as a first language."
That seems a slightly idiotic conclusion, because it presumes that all the ethnic minority prisoners must be speaking English as a second language. Furthermore, some of the foreign prisoners might well speak English as a first language (such as Australians and Americans).
Nevertheless, it is fair to say that foreign prisoners are 'overrepresented' (for want of a better term) in prison. 15,000 out of 80,000 makes them nearly 20% of the prison population.
"The Churchill's ? The Hogg's ? The SNP royals the Ewing's ? The Alexander's ? The N. I. Paisley's."
There should be no apostrophes. Just s. Leaving that aside, isn't 'Alexander' your supreme commander north of the Wall? Or do you mean a different one? Which family member took over from Winston Churchill?
I will leave Cuba for the moment as I am sure that there will be a post celebrating it soon enough, which I shall respond to.
rumbold the machine gave me the s's
I guessed that leaving out the Alexanders would be spotted by you.
Churchills before and after the old drunken crook are too many to number.
"The machine gave me the s's."
A bad workman always blames his tools.
Everybody makes mistakes; even me. I only pointed it out because it was a recurring one.
rumbold - you are correct we all make mistakes, I operate on the basis that if I can understand the meaning I let it go.
My daughter sends me text messages such as - Hi Da how r u I am OK an doin wel - etc she has an 'a' pass in higher English and an honours degree in English from Glasgow Uni.
I have reluctantly accepted it after many fights with her, she maintains that times have changed and being understood is paramount, and I now agree.
byeck - a churlish and ungracious acceptance that you lied.
You still haven't explained the problem that you refer to ?
Re your non-existent wee Mormon problem - perhaps the Paisley Express, 25th & 30th May 2006 will jog your memory.
For ease of reference, "Cops Probe Kelly Bigoted Attack" is one headline.
Heavens man, that piece even had Labour Provost Burns feeling faint
and promising to deal with you.
And you dare call Mr Crun and me Bigots - Send for Winnie and the boys, Henry!!
"...all ethnic minority prisoners...have English as a second language."
I concede you have a point, but it seems discourteous to use our host's Blog for private debates.
"My daughter sends me text messages such as - Hi Da how r u I am OK an doin wel - etc she has an 'a' pass in higher English and an honours degree in English from Glasgow Uni."
I did not know that the University of Glasgow taught foreign languages.
"She maintains that times have changed and being understood is paramount, and I now agree."
Just because more people are using 'textspeak', does not make it acceptable. Those of us who believe in using one's langauge properly should fight to preserve it from the 'modernisation' tide.
Byeck - you're trying but not getting very far, the point is, you referred to a 'wee problem' I said and still do that I didn't have a wee problem and it turned out that I was right, wasn't I ?
I do call you bigots and I'm right.
Rumbold - I agree that the language of Shakespeare and Milton is indeed beautiful and it would be lovely to insist on it's proper use but, I'm afraid the horse has already bolted, you will have settle as I have for a mixture of both.
I believe that some day great literature will be written in 'textspeak' and we will appreciate it because we will understand it, years ago I would have railed against such heresy and, if I can change,etc.
The "Wee Mormon problem" that you dont have.
Apologies for taking so long to catch on, but....you're doing IRONY aren't you!!!
And you're right, any problem that gives a Scots Labour Provost the vapours cannot be described as "wee."
"I agree that the language of Shakespeare and Milton is indeed beautiful and it would be lovely to insist on it's proper use but, I'm afraid the horse has already bolted, you will have settle as I have for a mixture of both."
You have to love him.
A PAISLEY councillor has launched an astonishing attack on the Mormon religion, dubbing its members "morons" and "buffoons."
Terry Kelly also said he hopes God will "visit a plague of boils and locusts" on them.
Mr Kelly, who is the Labour Party member for Ferguslie, launched the tirade against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on his website.
He calls the US Mormon Brigham Young University "repugnant."
And the councillor even attempts to crack a joke about the young Mormon missionaries often seen at work on Paisley's streets.
He writes: "What do you call two young, well dressed, crop headed Yanks walking around a Scottish housing estate?
"Quick the Mormons are in the street, shut the curtain, don't answer the door, and let the dug oot."
Mr Kelly also launches an attack on Mormon MSP Brian Adam.
He alleges: "The SNP and the fundamentalist religious dinosaurs is a story which refuses to go away ... now we find out that the SNP are up to their elbows in (it) with the repugnant Brigham Young University in Utah, USA, better known to us of course as the Mormons.
"Card carrying Mormon and SNP MSP Brian Adam has been instrumental in bringing these Moron students to work as "Interns" at Holyrood for SNP MSPs."
He adds: "The deeds that are done and the poison which is spread in the name of Christ drives me to despair.
undefinedI say to Mr Adam and the Moron religion, gentle Jesus would not touch you with a barge pole, I hope the Lord will visit a plague of boils and locusts on the lot of you.
"If you are black and gay the Moron Church will pray to have the warmest corner of hell saved for you."
And in an apparent reference to Jesus, Mr Kelly adds: "Oh! And by the way what do these Christian buffoons reckon the chances of an acceptance to B.Y.U. would be for a 33-year-old male who still lives with his mammy and has only ever had men friends (12 of them), one called John whom he loved " I think Mr Adam and the Morons should let us know."
Douglas Yates, publicity officer for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Paisley, expressed his shock and disgust at Mr Kellyundefineds attack on his religion.
He said: "It is extremely disappointing to see Councillor Kellyundefineds negative views of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members on his website.
"His repeated use of offensive language to denigrate the Church and its members can be construed as religious bigotry.
"Councillor Kelly is also factually incorrect in his assertions.
"However, the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we should love our enemies, so we will bear no ill will towards Councillor Kelly, but hope that he will remember that he represents a section of the population where there are many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints residing, some of whom may have voted for him at the last local authority election.
"Why Councillor Kelly should have such a jaundiced view of the Church and its members only he will know, but it is worth reflecting that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been in Scotland since 1840 with its very first congregation established in Paisley in May, 1840.
"Latter-day Saints are taught to be law-abiding, community serving, alcohol and drug abstaining, productive members of their community.
"If Councillor Kelly were to have had any dealings with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints he would soon be disabused of the notions he espouses."
When contacted by the Paisley Daily Express, Mr Kelly dismissed the comments on his website as a "joke."
He said: "It was tongue in cheek. It was meant to be funny."
But he added: "I donundefinedt like the Mormon Church and what it stands for."
He added he deplored what he alleged was the church's hostility towards black people and homosexuals.
"But I would be happy to talk to Douglas Yates."
Brian Adam said he did not wish to comment on Mr Kellyundefineds remarks.
But he added: "The public will make their own judgment about Mr Kelly's intemperate and inaccurate views."
Since being contacted by the Paisley Daily Express about the website article, Mr Kelly added a preface to it saying that he would be removing it "shortly."
He writes: "Having spoken to colleagues I am persuaded that the way it's written could allow those whom I criticise to muddy the waters by turning the argument into a debate about my character and thereby avoid the serious issues that I raise."
He also pointed out that the views expressed were entirely his own, and not those of the Labour Party or Renfrewshire Council.
"...and it would be lovely to insist on it's proper use but...
Would that include not using an apostrophe when using the possessive form of 'its', or did the machine add that one too?
rumbold - I suspect that you already have to compromise as I do but I don't like it either.
byeck - no irony intended I didn't have a Mormon problem and I don't have now.
I never retracted a word and still don't, how can I have a problem ?
Did you know that a motion was laid before the Scottish Parliament accusing of the Mormon Brigham Young University of driving gay students to commit suicide ? that's a much tougher than what I said and it received multi party support !
Jim lewis - I have never retracted a word - I'm not surprised at your support for them - If you believe that 'the lord could send a plague of boils and locusts on someone' then you wouldn't see the joke would you ?
Brigham Young University is IMO repugnant.
Brian Adam SNP MSP was instrumental in doing deals with BYU a Mormon Uni. Which is openly anti gay and persecutes students who are gay. A Holyrood motion with cross party support accused BYU of causing the suicides of gay students, not me, Scottish MSP's
'Brian Adam, the SNP MSP involved said the public would make their own judgement about my intemperate and innacurate views' and they did an avalanche of votes saw me elected first in my ward.
I removed the article to avoid people like you from twisting the serious points I made, and still stand by.
By the way Jim were you under the influence when you wrote this ? read it again and, please try to briefer.
Glad you dont have a Mormon problem. I guess it was your 'tongue in cheek' defence that stopped us seeing The Saints go Marching in to Paisley looking for Kelly blood.
Now then, about you being agin the Brigham Young Uni anti-gay policy.
If it's only the Mormon anti gays you're targetting, then I'm with you, comrade. But I'm not sure how this crusade is going to play with the Sons Of the Prophet, who are also very,very, anti - something to do with their religion, a bit like the Mormons, I suppose.
If you intend taking that lot on, then you're on your own, you reckless devil.
Byeck - You are too late I've condemned anti gay prejudice for years no matter where it comes from, even Cuba.
"By the way Jim were you under the influence when you wrote this ? read it again and, please try to briefer."
Um, I didn't write it. I copied it from a newspaper. You might recognise the words. Most of them are yours. You're the verbose one, not me.
BTW, since you love to use, "I suggest you re-read the posting" so often, may I suggest you do the same. Having done so, could you be so kind as to show where exactly I show the slightest support for Mormons or BYU. I abhor religious fundamentalism of all shades. Similarly with politicians, particularly the kind who sell their poltical souls to stay on teh right side of their leaders, because the only way they can get elected is under the umbrella instaed of out in the rain.
Jim Lewis - Verbose doesn't begin to describe you. If you were not defending them what were you doing ?
Your abhorance of religious fundamentalism I assume means that you agree with me then about the Mormons and BYU ?
I've been a member of the labour Party for approx. 40 yrs. And a councillor for 8 yrs. So selling my poltical soul hasn't been very successful has it ? A bit shorter keep it up.
I don't single out Mormons or BYU, but if they take a homophobic stance, then I wholeheartedly condemn them. As for plagues of boils, given my atheism, it'd be hard for me to believe that one. I did sufer from them myself at one time, but I put that down to adolescence and failure to wash. I was 15.
jim Lewis - Pathetic - I reckon that you can't lie straight in your bed at night.
Councillor Kelly, you obviously know very little of Mormons or Brigham Young University. I suggest you become personally acquainted with a few of them before presuming to be capable of judging them. Much of the information to which you have referred is hyperbole published by opponents of the Mormon Church.
"jim Lewis - Pathetic - I reckon that you can't lie straight in your bed at night"
Unbelievable. You asked a question and I answered it. Which bit do you reckon was a lie? No more hiding Tel. Just straight talk please.
Cayblood - I go back a bit with the Mormon church, we have form, I suggest that you go and do some research before telling me that I know nothing about them.
Let me ask you a question, I stated that members of the Scottish parliament had put down a motion to parliament condemning the SNP involvement with BYU Contained in this motion was a statement which said that BYU were responsible for driving young students who were gay to commit suicide, you can check this at the parliament.
This is far stronger than anything that I ever said about the Mormon Church so, have you or any other Mormons taken issue with the members of the Scottish parliament who put down this motion.
If not, why not ? Are you afraid of the SNP ? Who might want the scandal to go away ?
Jim Lewis - no you didn't answer it, either you condemn the Homophobia of the Mormons or you don't no ifs or buts.
You quoted my joke about plaques of boils etc to try to get people to believe that I was serious and then tried to deny it.
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