Wednesday, May 23, 2007


BARACK OBAMA My previous post called 'yanks n fitba' refers to Barack Obama as being pro capital punishment and pro Iraq. One of my readers takes exception to this saying that I've got Mr. Obama wrong so, here is my source, not something I usually do, I regard it mostly as time wasting diversions.

You will see from a reasonably sound source that I got him right, I forgot to add that Clinton, Edwards and Obama were up to their necks in hedge funds.

Strangely enough I'm not saying that my critic is entirely wrong because the political ground in America is shifting fast and Obama and the rest of the candidates are keeping up with that shift which is becoming more and more anti Bush ( thank god ) thus we see him becoming anti Iraq to suit the public mood.

This is of course a diversion and does not alter what I said, I could have chosen many who are too scared to declare themselves as being on the left because of fear, think about what happened recently to the 'Dixie Chicks' and remember 'Old Joe McCarthy' American democracy still lies bleeding under the reactionary jackboot of the Gangsters Bush and Chaney and not much has changed.

They need a Castro to clean out the thugs and crooks the same as he did in Cuba.


Anonymous said...

"They need a Castro to clean out the thugs and crooks the same as he did in Cuba"

And to get rid of those pesky election things, and that freedom of the press malarky.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

Fair enough, thanks for the link.

Here's an interesing one I found

I believe (hope) that he's cunningly going about the business of abolishing their death penalty by the back door...

I'd have to say that you're probably right in what you say about the political gorund shifting such that the more anti-Bush they can appear to be, the better chance they have.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

rumbold - have you forgotten about 'good ole boy Jeb' in Florida ? I've been over this before but, not with you.

Why is the mightiest nation in history so scared of it's tiny neighbour Cuba ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

plagiarist - I will continue as I'm sure you will to watch the USA elections with great interest.

Anonymous said...

"have you forgotten about 'good ole boy Jeb' in Florida ?"

So Castro's behaviour is okay because you think that Jeb Bush does the same? Interesting that you would look to the Bushes to set your political standards. I have a deep dislike of Jeb Bush, and an even greater dislike of Castro.

Anonymous said...

"Why is the mightiest nation in history so scared of it's tiny neighbour Cuba ?"

I think that neighbour is the key word, as the US does not like a communist/fascist country so close to it.

It is clear now that the embargo has been counter-productive, as it has only damaged the lives of ordinary Cubans while Fidel, after decades in power, plans to hand over to Raoul, with his authority little weakened. Cuba's dictatorship is sustained thanks to European tourists, who swan around marvelling at a socialist paradise, while pro-democracy dissidents languish in jail.

If you wish to argue with the previous paragraph, please do not start citing all the times the USA has abused human rights, as one's country's bad behaviour does not justify another's.

It will be great when Bush and Cheney go; they have done immense damage to America and America's place in the world.

RfS said...

Ah, yes. Good ole boy Jeb who was able to predict that Florida would be the decisive swing state in the election and set out to "steal" it. Of course you neglect to mention that it was Gore who went to the Florida Supreme Court to get specific recounts done, you forget that he only wanted recounts in heavily Democrat areas, Bush's contribution was to ask the court not to grant him his wishes and that after the election the New York Times, a shill for the Democrats, paid for a recount of all ballots using every variation of what Gore was asking for and Gore STILL lost.

By god that Jeb is a smart one. Oh, and that afterwards there was many prosecutions for voter intimidation and fraud across the land but guess what? They were to a man exclusively Democrat. Of course those Diebold machines must have gotten better because after the last Congressional election there were no claims they were rigged.

Ponder this oh great one: The 2000 election was only that close because Bush won it. Had Gore won Florida it would have been a resounding victory to him.

And Gore should have strolled it given the economic track record at the time. But people were sick of Clinton and punished Gore, even when Gore kept Clinton off the campaign trail they still were voting against him!!!

But I can see how you could identify with someone who won the popular vote but lost the election.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

rumbold- a rather childish analysis but, if you must.

The Bush family are the latest in a long line of disgraceful charlatans who have held the discredited office of the President of the USA.

Castro is a Giant.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - Cuban neighbour ? That's a pathetic answer. Fidel makes the American Presidents look like pygmies - I know many people who have visited Cuba and your analysis is a prejudiced insult to them. Ill informed bias is not argument.

America's place in the world was damaged a long time ago, the thugs and crooks who are in charge now are just carrying on the tradition.

Anonymous said...

"Cuban neighbour ? That's a pathetic answer"

Why exactly is it a pathetic answer? Surely Cuba's proximity is the main reason for its importance in American eyes. If Cuba were exactly the same, but just off the coast of India, the US would not be nearly as concerned.

You rightly criticise aspects of the US system, such as the death penalty, that you find appalling. Why then, do you not engage in discussion about Cuba's lack of democracy (regardless of how you feel about Castro as a leader, you must wonder why he allows no elections and imprisons those who call for them).

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Your willingness to cling to corrupt Americans like the Bush clan gets you points for loyalty - you are aligned with crooks which doesn't surprise me.

Can you make it shorter,. We 've heard all this from you before.

'The people will fall easier for a big lie than a little one' (A Hitler)

RfS said...

"'The people will fall easier for a big lie than a little one' (A Hitler) "

Yup, and which is the bigger lie? That Bush stole the election or that the US needs a strongman despot in charge?

Care to take this opportunity to defend one of your Westminster colleagues? Maybe one that is worth, say, £16m and maybe representing a Glasgow seat? What with you being against false socialists and all.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Cuba's proximity is only part of it, they fear a socialist country and Fidel because they are afraid of socialism, they are afraid that the millions of poor, exploited Americans will discover that there is a better way.

The fact that this very dangerous example of a fair decent society is on their doorstep makes the hatred and fear more tangible. I believe that Cuba is a more democratic country than America where Bush rules with less than 25 % of the vote.

America can, like anyone else become a fair and decent society but, they have to remove the fear that prevents people from admitting that they are on the left. They have to get rid of the corporate criminals who run the place, who has the contracts to rebuild Iraq after America has destroyed it ?

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

'The people will fall easier for a big lie than a little one' (A Hitler)

Ever heard of Godwin's law ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Bush stole the election and America needs a strong, honest decent socialist leader, someone like Fidel Castro would fit the bill.

Defend someone worth £16 million ? I would love to have £16 Million I could do a lot of good deeds with that, do a lot of damage to political opponents. Is that what your MP does ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

plagiarist - is that Godwin the anarchist icon ? what was his law ?

Anonymous said...

"Yup, and which is the bigger lie? That Bush stole the election or that the US needs a strongman despot in charge?"

Nope, Bush didn't steal the election. His brother Jeb did it for him.

Anonymous said...

"I believe that Cuba is a more democratic country than America where Bush rules with less than 25 % of the vote"

Though I do not like Bush, he did win the last election, and received 51% of the vote. If you meant his support as a % of the electorate, which I suspect you did, then his support was in the high 20% of eligible voters (I am not trying to be pedantic; just clarifying it). Those who chose not to vote did not vote for him, but nor did they vote against him, which they were entitled to do.

You are perfectly entitled to argue that Cuba is a better country than the US. However, I am not sure how it is more democratic, as there are no elections, nor is there direct democracy. Even if you accept (which I do not) that the vast majority of Cubans love Castro, it is still not democratic, because they have not been given the chance air their opinion at the ballot box. Why?

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

There's a link, but Godwins law (adage) states:
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one"

Essentially all online discussions will end up talking about the Nazis or Hitler if they go on for long enough...

You'd be amazed at how often it seems to come true. I've seen in some usenet groups, the administrator stepping in to end arguments (flame wars), declaring that the argument is over when Godwin's Law is enacted.

Wasn't implying criticism BTW, just mentioning it out of interest.

RfS said...

"Is that what your MP does ? "

Type in "Jim Sheridan" into TheyWorkForYou and have a laugh at what my MP does. His statement in the recent debate on elfen safety is a glorious window into the mindset of the Labour party at Westminster.

So you are not going to attack those in the British Labour Party who maybe don't meet your criteria for being a socialist? Just going to attack foreigners who cannot make your life difficult? That makes you a cowardly politician does it not?

Anonymous said...

If Cuba is so good why do so many Cubans want to live in the USA and risk life and limb escaping Cuba?

Reactionary Snob said...


It's not enough to say there were electoral problems in one election in America, therefore we' can absolve Cuba of any inspection whatsoever. Rather than automatically attacking a position why not defend your own? Do you believe in free and fair elections? If so, yes, Florida was a travesty, but surely the bigger travesty is having no free or fair elections for 50 years...

Anyway, Obama is not pro-Iraq. He was against the invasion but now we are there believes that we should stay the course. A morally cogent argument (if we are there, we may as well equip the troops properly and see out the job). Your party is in favour of the war in Iraq. If it is such a big deal, why not grow some cojones and leave?


Anonymous said...

"They need a Castro to clean out the thugs and crooks the same as he did in Cuba"

Yup. He snet them in boats to the USA, along with the mentally ill. The USA took them in and gave them shelter and a new life.

It's interesting you should get into the Obama thing, giving some attention to your false assertion that he is in favour of capital punishment, which you perceive to be inhuman ( I agree with that sentiment) and then use Castro as the shining beacon. Is it me? Castro doesn't believe in the death penalty? All the reports of deaths by firing squad are just another example of our fascist Gnat conspiracy? Wow.

Anonymous said...

Hi Terry...

'I believe that Cuba is a more democratic country than America where Bush rules with less than 25 % of the vote.'

Let's have a wee look at this...

Cuba - the idyllic island of the great Fidel

The Communist Party of Cuba is constitutionally recognized as Cuba's only legal political party.

Next to the Communist Party of Cuba, various political parties are illegally active in the country.

The national elections for the 609 members of the National Assembly of People's Power were held according to this system at 19 January 2003. There was only one candidate for each seat.

I suppose that makes the Communists % of vote = 100%, which is pretty impressive

USA - the totalitarian regime of the infamous GWB

US Presidential election 2004 (2000 figs in brackets)

Electoral Vote needs 270 to win : 286 (271)

GWB popular vote = 62.04m (50.4m)
% of popular vote = 50.7m (47.9m)
turnout 105.4m (122.3m)

Electorate : (use as a rough proxy) 2005 Pop > 18 = 215m, giving
GWB vote as % of total electorate = 29% or so

Not as good as Fidel's boys, but not bad if you take into account the starting handicap.

Lastly, our own green and pleasant land

UK 2005 Election

Seats in Parliament - Labour = 355 : Others = 290

Lab % of votes cast = 35.2%
Turnout = 61.4%
Lab Vote as % of total electorate = 20%

(With all due apologies to Dire Straits), you could be forgiven for thinking of the UK electoral system - 'that's the way to do it, votes for nothing, and the twats run free'.

Anyway, it's exam time for the next generation so lets have a bit of fun.

Based on the above...

Is Britain less democratic than the USA, and the USA less so than Cuba? - please discuss

and I shall be so disappointed if you just do a Rimmer on us all

(thanks to Wikipedia and Keele University for the figures)

(and sorry if this hits twice...never seems to work right first time)

Anonymous said...

So how do you justify Cuba's poor human rights record, the use of electro shock therapy against disidents and the widespread torture of people caught trying to escape?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

jim lewis - 'the biggest lie' I've been over this several times.

IMO There is no more politically corrupt country in the world than America. Money and privilege rule and corporate crooks are in charge.

How did Bush get to be president ? In this country, how did Harry and Willian get to be where they are ? how did Douglas Hume and Churchill ( idiots both ) get to the top ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - 'Cubans don't love Fidel' some arguments have some logic but that one ?

Cuba has regular turn outs in the 90% region - Cuba has one party and America has two, both Capitalist, the so called left, the Democrats are the ones, under that great son of the criminal Kennedy dynasty were actually the ones who invaded the Island.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

plagiarist - 'godwins law' fascinating.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Really not worth answering.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

anon - this used to be a story when the revolution was new, some people thrived under the American gangsters who ran the place.

Some people see America as an opportunity to be like the Ewings in Dallas, not the millions of homeless not the trailer park dwellers, not as members of the highest prison population evr known.

There are lots of Cubans all over the world, lots of them doing great work in the medical field in 3rd. world countries. Why do they go back ? it's not for money.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

Jim Lewis wrote:
giving some attention to your false assertion that he is in favour of capital punishment

Google is your friend, Obama is for the death penalty... I also intially thought he was against it, but a little digging shows that he's more keen to win the vote than actually stand against something that is so wrong...

Obama says the death penalty "does little to deter crime" but he supports it for cases in which "the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage."

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RS - ' do I believe in free and fair elections' yes, do you, where are they ?

Let me clear it up IMO America is a democracy in name only it's the most politically corrupt country on the planet. Anyone can become president if you have the money, e.g. the idiot Bush.

Cuba has one party and gets a 95% turnout America has two + minnows and gets 51% the left ? (Democrats) are the ones who invaded Cuba and started the kill Castro farce.

Obama is no different from the rest, he sees the wind blowing against Bush and is trying to grab his chance, if Iraq was popular he'd be flag waving as well.

I think the ones with the 'cojones' are the ones who stand and fight, not the ones who quit.

I've asked this many times and I think/hope you will give an honest answer, why is the most powerful country in history so obsessed/afraid of it's tiny 3rd world neighbour Cuba ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

scunnered - 'Lies damned lies and statistics' ( Disraeli) I have been over this many times and I'm not going over it again, we might make some progress if you drop your obsession with showing us all how clever you are.

IMO Cuba is more democratic because America is so corrupt and Cubans are far more engaged in the process. I have never, despite the snide remarks, claimed that Cuba is perfect, I do consider it better than the rest. I don't regard American capitalism as democratic because so many are not involved and, I consider this to be deliberate, the corporate gangs are the real power.

Is there any chance of shortening your comments, what if we all agree 'you're clever' would that do it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

anon - 'Cuba' I don't know where you get this drivel but I don't buy it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

plagiarist - I make allowances for jim lewis.

Anonymous said...

"'Cubans don't love Fidel' some arguments have some logic but that one ?"

That was not meant to be an argument, it was a qualifier. I just meant that there is no system in place for Cubans to register their like/dislike of Castro, whether they like him or not.

"Cuba has regular turn outs in the 90% region"

They only have one party to vote for. Often the worst dictators are the ones who record massive turnout/support from a fraudulent referendum (Saddam Hussain springs to mind). The clinching argument has to be that if you went to America, you could stand for most offices even without the consent of the Republicans/Democrats; if you went to Cuba you would need the consent of the ruling party to stand; in what sense is that democracy?

RfS said...

So what you are saying is that when an American champaign socialist is on the move you will attack him but when it is a British one you will not comment?

Not only Sarwar but I believe that a certain MSP you promote lives in a nice west end pad with a husband that is quite successful. Do they know about your plan to tax the rich at 100%?

You are quite the hypocrite terry are you not?

RfS said...

"Why do they go back ? it's not for money. "

If I beat you every week for a year in a small locked room beside a small locked room containing your family, then one day I said "go down the shops for some milk for me, oh and by the way, if you don't come back I will execute your wife and children" what would you do?

Anonymous said...

Oh Terry, you don't seem to do humour, do you?

FWIW, I'm not terribly clever, nor obsessed with being so. What is worrying is that you might really see me as being such - but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to your merely practising the art of irony.

Whatever, on to the re-sits. A full answer also required comment on the positioning of the UK's electoral results in the democratic stakes, relative to the US and Cuba. Please elaborate.

BTW, I'll happily shorten my comments if you will properly answer the questions. That seems a fair trade-off.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

rumbold - yes you can stand for any office in America but without millions of dollars you haven't a chance - try mentioning socialism and you will be crucified, all perfectly legal of course.

You can call it democracy if you like.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - You really are getting more pathetic, I do not attack people because of their personal circumstances money or otherwise, I deal with their political opinions.

I didn't say I would tax anyone at 100 % but I remember someone saying I did, interesting that you give it credence though, tax at 100 % ? says more about you than me, I think some growing up needs to be done.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - You forgot the bit about Fidel eating children.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

scunnered - is that the truncated version ?

You and I are not going to give any ground on Cuba that's obvious so stop wasting my time.

About my answers, why don't you just tell me what to write and I'll consider it ?

RfS said...

The 100 percent quote was reported in the local free sheet. If this was inaccurate then did you complain to the editor and have a retraction printed?

It was the piece that reported ferguslie as being top of the child poverty league.

I take it you don't think castro holds families hostage then?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - I don't know what free sheet you're talking about and if I did I would not take it seriously.

Even those who disagree with me vehemently would accept that I did not say that I would tax the rich at 100 % most people except you apparently.

You believe I would set a tax rate at 100 % do you ? Is that what you think ?

Castro is a lovely guy.

RfS said...

Yup, I do think that given all the nonsense you spout in this blog and your lack of the basic grasp of business and economy a 100% tax on the rich is something I would expect from you.

The quote was "I know it is not Labour party policy but I would impose a 100% tax on the rich" and it is the Extra sheet. May I suggest you not only make a complaint to the editor but in future keep a closer eye on what is being printed about you? You are clearly being smeared.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - As I said I wouldn't respond to a story like that because I would assume that everyone would know that it's a wind up, but not you seemingly.

So if you take something like that literally and still, quite incredibly, standing by your analysis of it, what are we to make of you ? That's why I asked that question, and still do.

A five year old can get away with it but why would an adult say that ?

Anonymous said...

Hi Terry.

Not bad on the humour, but don't try too hard or you might even smile

Ok, taking up your offer, why don't you just write:

Democracy is proved to be working properly when a socialist party rules, irrespective of who can be voted for, however the votes can be counted and whether or not more people vote against that party than for it.

I can't see too much there for you to take umbrage at

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

scunnered - 'my offer' was rhetorical

Anonymous said...

Hi Terry

'scunnered - 'my offer' was rhetorical'

It would have been if you had asked 'About my answers, why don't you just tell me what to write?

Adding 'and I'll consider it ?' created an invitation.

So fewer marks this time on the humour stakes.

Progressing onwards (but I fear probably downwards), may I invite you again to answer the question set?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Scunnered - when I saw that you had taken me literally I didn't pay much attention to what you wrote. I have now read it, and, re-read it, and, you are still obsessed with showing how clever you are. Write it again.

Anonymous said...

If an American wanted to vote for or against Bush in 2004, they could have. If a Cuban wanted to vote for or against Castro, they cannot.

You were elected because people wanted you in office. Under the Cuban system, there would be no elections, and your position would have been filled by an appointed official, which might or might not have been you. Your constituents would have had no say in the matter. Please can you tell me whether appointment as opposed to election makes for a better country?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - You don't seem to be able to think clearly when it comes to Cuba - you are merely repeating the same American garbage that the CIA have been telling us for years.

I have stated clearly on many occasions that I regard Cuba as more democratic than the USA and no amount of American inspired poison is going to change my mind.

I can't remember if I've asked you personally but I've certainly asked many times - Why is the most powerful nation in history so afraid/ obsessed with it's tiny 3rd. World neighbour Cuba ? Care to have a go ?

Anonymous said...

From earlier post by me in this thread:

"Surely Cuba's proximity is the main reason for its importance in American eyes. If Cuba were exactly the same, but just off the coast of India, the US would not be nearly as concerned."

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

rumbold - I think you know don't you, that I asked why they are so concerned ? for instance is America, the greatest power in the history of the planet afraid that Cuba will invade them ?

Anonymous said...

Over the centuries, Europeans have got used to the idea that hostile countries exist right next to them. Even England was surrounded by Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, the Low Countries, Scandinavia and Iberia. Therefore, having an enemy next door is a natural state of affairs for the European psyche.

America on the other hand has not really had this problem historically, so gets far more agitated when a country like Cuba is next to it. Not that Cuba could invade, but during the Cold War there was a real fear that the USSR might use it as a staging point for an invasion.

America is not worried about Castronian ideals of repression spreading to their populace. They just would prefer Cuba to be a bit farther a way. The American boycott magnifies Cuba's and Castro's importance, and should be dropped.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

rumbold - nothing you have said comes close to explaining America's fear and obsession with Cuba.

Could it be something to do with the battle for hearts and minds perhaps ?

The USA, afraid of a neighbour with a different ( dangerous ) philosophy which endangers Capitalism continues to react against Cuba like a scared bully.

In New York alone over 18,000 children under five years old are sleeping in homeless shelters, maybe that and many other things scare the USA when they think about Cuba.

What's the chance of Americans really learning about Cuba ? that's what they're afraid of.