Monday, October 29, 2007


The row rumbles on - They must provide a level playing field but the white Afrikaner will never give ground in rugby to black S.A.s they see rugby as part of white supremacist culture and they will never change willingly, they will have to be forced.

Opinion is demanding a change to produce more black internationals, to banish for ever the Springbok emblem, a remnant of the evil Apartheid days, the team doctor of Soweto rugby club Qasim Bhorat who cheered on the Springboks when they last won the World Cup said "this time I'll be cheering for England" that sounds nothing like 'the rainbow nation' does it ?

1996 Henry Tromp is capped after killing a black man, 2003 Springbok hero George Cronje refused to share a room with a black team mate, team rep. mark Keohane resigned saying " it's a matter of conscience, I'm disgusted with the racism within rugby, morally I can't be in a squad where racial prejudice is tolerated and excused.

It's got to stop and people here in Scotland and England should be ashamed for turning a blind eye to this poison.


RfS said...

Now come on Terry, we have established through the QA sessions in the other posts that you don't know what you are talking about, that you base your opinion mainly on the prejudices that have been bred into you and that your feelings towards white South Africans, that you characterised as all being parasites, is somewhere south of "cold fury".

In other words, you are wrong and I am bored. Lets have your opinion on something else.

Like - say - the recent football match between BAA and the council. How many Labour councillors played in this game? And is the rumour I have heard true about threats being issued in the direction of the leader of the council.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Your first para. Is recycled drivel.

"Like - say - the recent football match between BAA and the council. How many Labour councillors played in this game? And is the rumour I have heard true about threats being issued in the direction of the leader of the council."

No labour Cllrs. Played. If that's true about threats it's more likely to be coming from his own party, I know nothing about that, I have a perfectly amicable relationship with the council leader, ask him.

When Tony Blair made his last speech in the Commons the whole house stood and cheered and aplauded everyone except the SNP members.

Even Paisley and the Ulster jolly boys were clapping and smiling but not the SNP, does that give you a clue about the football match ?

Byeck said...

'Tromp capped after killing a black man?'

What the hell has the victims colour got to do with it? Or would it have been OK if he'd killed a white man?

'Cronje refused to roomshare with a black team mate.'

Terry, at the risk of causing you distress, I would refuse to share a room with you, but that's because I'm anti Terry, not because I'm anti Scots.

Donald Trefusis said...

Meneer Kelly,

As a retired South Africa professor of Sociology and a man who was once classified under apartheid as coloured or kleurling, I have to say that you are so far off the mark in terms of SA Rugby.

SA Rugby has been a unifying influence not only in the schools, and rugby clubs around the country but also in the townships. The World Cup experience both when it was hosted here and we won it at Ellis Park (named after a great SA number 8, Jan Ellis)but also during the latest competition.

Don't take the remarks of individuals as being indicative of public opnion. The Springbok logo is not regarded as a mark of the past, but as a mark of unity. The Springbok remains the national fauna and symbol of our great nation. Yes there are some who would hark back to the "old days" but they are few and far between.

My own sons served voluntarily in the SADF alongside white boys doing their national service. And they were treated with the utmost respect by their peers and by their officers. I see you make reference to one such person. Township duty was not the way you seem to portray it – most of the time the SADF were there to keep the peace. In Wellington we were fortunate that none of the agitators were able to instigate violence or divisions within our community.

I have read your blog after seeing some comments on the BBC sport website. You espouse socialism, a concept completely alien here in South Africa. We don't like it and we don't want it. Nelson Mandela was rightly criticised for aligning himself with Fidel Castro.

Socialism is alien to the African psyche. Although the tribal structures do lend themselves to a form of socialist structure. This is where the community as a whole is based on clan structures where the village elders make the decisions relating to the community and they are respected by the community as a whole. Structures that the ANC/PAC cadres did their utmost to disrupt.

Africans do not understand democracy. It is only in the urban areas where the population makes up less than 15% of the whole population that the rural tribal structures have broken down completely that democracy is seen in a more favourable light.

I would suggest sir that you use less inflammatory language when you respond to those who do not share your views – you do yourself and your cause no credit no matter how others provoke. There are many that once did not share mine but I respected them - even Madiba who I had the honour of visiting in prison does not share my views but he does not resort to dissembling and discrediting his detractors.

Humility can be used to great effect sometimes.

Donald Trefusis, Prof. Sociology ret.

Byeck said...

'whole House stood and applauded Blairs last speech.'

Councillor, the whole country stood and applauded, because this disgraceful liar was finally going

Reactionary Snob said...

Geo Cronje was cleared of racism, by the way, Terry.


Reactionary Snob said...

I don't think you know an awful lot about South African life, Terry. Not all white South Africans are Afrikaans.

Yes, rugby is dominated by whites. In the same way rugby is dominated by the middle classes in the UK - not because it is a middle class sport but rather because the best coaches etc are at private schools (where the majority are still white. Habana, as it happens, went to a leading school).

So even though black players do play rugby, it is rare that they come into contact with very good coaching. In Scotland, in the last 12 years only once has the Schools Cup gone to a state school (last year to Bell Baxter - and that is largely because it is an SRU Development School).

The way to get more blacks in the Saffer rugby team? Allow more and more black pupils to go to good schools and play the game... this is happening due to market forces and the rise of a new black middle class.

The quota system just breeds resentment and devalues the black players - if you are in a team because of the colour of your skin, how do you feel about it? How do your team mates feel about it? How does the guy who is a better player than you but has been dropped because he isn't black feel about it? Does this lead to more team bonding or less? Does this lead to more racism or less?


Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Byeck - Is this a defence of these people ? In S.A. Colour has a lot to do with everything.

Are you saying that Cronje refused to room share with a black team mate because he didn't like him, nothing to do with his colour ?
You are another apologist for racism.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Donald Trufisis - Thank you for that concise comment. I've rarely read such a sustained load of rubbish before, still I'm sure you enjoyed writing it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Byeck - do you write your own jokes?

Donald Trefusis said...

Meneer Kelly

I take then you have visited our fine country?

On what basis to you contend that what I have written is rubbish, or do you automatically disregard informed comment?

I would have thought that a public servant such as yourself would have better manners. At least the white people here have swallowed their pride and learned to treat everyone with respect.

Seems colonial attitudes die hard in Soctland.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Reactionar Snob - Exactly !

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Reactionary snob - I have always said that my ire is not directed at all S.A.'s.

I have to go to your last para. to find an issue, what you describe here is exactly what is happening with the Sprinboks. I don't advocate quotas whether it's black rugby players, black sections in the labour Party or women only short lists for labour nominations.

My point is that rugby at international level in S.A. is racist and has too change, I don't believe that the Springboks will do that, they will have to be forced to do it. They have had long enough to put their house in order.

Reactionary Snob said...

But Terry, you seem to misunderstand.

At the moment, with exception of Habana, white players tend to be better than black players. That's because many of them went to leading rugby schools and then to the Afrikaans speaking university (Stellenbosch) which has the largest rugby club in the world. At present, they pick the best players possible - Chester Williams got in, Habana got in, Breydan Paulse got in... but most of the best players are white. Not because the Saffers want to pick white players but because Victor Matfield is the best lock forward on the planet, Fourie Du Preez is the best scrum half, Os Du Randt is still one of the best props etc.

Now, you can wait for social change to happen OR you pick black players who aren't good enough?


Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Reactionary Snob - I accept your analysis but I'm saying force the change to happen, rugby countries should boycott them until rugby is an equal opportunities sport.

They have held up progress long enough, they have no intention of introducing equality, use the only language they understand - Force.

RfS said...

Ah, a non-denial denial. How very Nu Lab.

And it does not matter what the SNP did at the end of Tony's last speech. Your attempt to change the subject suggests you know more than you are letting on.

RfS said...

Following your comments to Donald Trefusis I am now left wondering if you have ever read a book called No Surrender?

You remind me a lot about the protagonist, particularly towards the newspapers he found during his time.

Reactionary Snob said...

But it is an equal opportunities sport... everyone is allowed to play rugby. The issue is that due to socio-economic factors that white players tend to be better than black players.

Over time, more black players will play rugby and, incidentally, more will play international rugby.

If we don't play against them unless they pick more black players we just come up against the same problems that come up when we have a quota system.

Surely, the best way forward would be to encourage clubs in South Africa to invest in young black players (it is in the interests of professional clubs to have good players on their books), to encourage black people to play rugby as well as other sports, to encourage university clubs to play teams from black areas and, if needs be, form an African equivalent of the NZ Maori.

In the meantime, the change will occur anyway but it should take time.


Anonymous said...

But your living in the past ol boy!

There are coloured players playing in the South African rugby team now. Or haven't you really noticed that through those milk bottle spctacles you wear?

What would you like the 21st century white Afrikans do to their black counterparts then ol chap?

Invade their townships illegaly and carpet bomb them to oblivion...but hey ol' chap that logic seemed to work for your superior Tony Blair in his aspiring career didn't it!

Boil yir head numpty!

Anonymous said...

Do the people of Paisley actually have to shell out cash for your expenses?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - I think you are talking about Labour's no show at the football, if so I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

I mentioned their behaviour to illustrate the depth of animosity between then and us, do you get that ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Haven't a clue.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RS - Yes of course but I'm saying we have waited long enough, the Springboks have never co-operated, white S.A. Rugby has never co-operated, it's time to force the change, drastic action is needed because they have no intention of changing.

Draw a line under the past and start again with an equal playing field, anyone who doesn't like it, can stay outside, i.e. You cant play rugby here because you are not co-operating with Govt. Regulations just as they did under Apartheid, they would catch on quick.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Tam Tumshie - this doesn't make any sense old boy.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

anon - all cllrs. spend money on travel and subsistance and reclaim the expenses.

Do you object to that ? how do you think I manage to live such a lavish life style ?

Anonymous said...

"anon - all cllrs. spend money on travel and subsistance"

I've seen your picture - looks like you may have been overdoing it on the subsistance.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - Much better Henry, are you not sick of the taste of soap ?

RfS said...

I am not talking about the no-show. I am talking about what was said at a meeting where criteria were laid down that certain Labour group members would have to have satisfied before they would play in the game.

Animosity? Not taking part in a football game sounds more like childishness to me. I mean, other parties took part did they not?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - 'criteria' ? Somebody winding you up I think (not difficult)

I'm not interested in what other parties did, I related the Blair story to emphasise what the SNP are like to deal with, I don't think you understand these things.

RfS said...

Nope, no-one was winding me up. I trust my source implicitly.

And just for clarity, you may relate these stories all you wish but I think you will find that the allegation is that someone in the Labour groups said something not very nice about the SNP leader. Or is that you lot just getting back for not clapping at Tony?

Care to issue a straight out denial that threats were directed at the SNP leader so I have you on record as a liar?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - "I think you will find that the allegation is"
I don't remember an allegation.

"someone in the Labour groups said something not very nice about the SNP leader."

Now there's a headline for you, wow ! Have you ever thought about journalism ? "Derek would be more worried if people in the Labour group said something nice about him."

"Care to issue a straight out denial that threats were directed at the SNP leader so I have you on record as a liar?"

"Threats" ? grow up for god's sake.

Being called a liar by you is meaningless.

Anonymous said...

The point I'm making my ol' milk bottle spectacled friend is that you slate the goings on in South Africa about "whites keeping the blacks down".

Your hero Tory Bliar doesn't agree with you my pot bellied friend. He went down the road hand in hand with a president of the United States who has no time for equal relations in the race/colour/creed stakes.

Take your milk bottle spectacles off for a sec ol' boy. Racial abuse and "keeping one another down" is not just in South Africa ol' chap...try looking around you in your own country, your own constituency and your own political party you muppet.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

tam tumshie - was that 4 or 5 personal insults ?

You need to address your problems with low self esteem and insecurity.

Anonymous said...

>>>tam tumshie - was that 4 or 5 personal insults ?<<<

Still not as many as you seem to perform each and every day on here milk bottle specs. Keep it coming muppet puppet.

Low self esteem, insecurity?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Tam Tumshie - are you going for a record of insults or are you going to comment on something ?

Anonymous said...

"Tam Tumshie - are you going for a record of insults or are you going to comment on something ?"

I already commented on your ludicrous idiotic views on this subject.

Of course you didn't seem to respond to those comments about your esteemed ex-leader Tony Blair and his hand in hand walk down Washington DC with the leader of the US of A, you only seemed to respond to the insults.

Sad really. Your esteemed hero Tny Blair walking hand in hand with a war monger, a racist and a complete fool. But you choose to ignore your esteemed hero Tony Blair in all things bad.

Answer me something truthfully toon cooncillor. Do you shout "gottle ov geer, gottle ov geer" when anyone in a red rossette tells you to?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(tam tumshie) 14:31 - "you choose to ignore your esteemed hero Tony Blair in all things bad."

Answer me something truthfully Tam Tumshie, what are your political affiliations or are you ashamed of them ?

Anonymous said...

Thought you might be interested in this Terry....

***Sports minister Makhenkesi Stofile has ruled out racial quotas for the Boks.“Quotas are out,” Stofile told the parliamentary sports committee. “Let us put our resources into the development of talent.”***

Stofile went on to say:
***black children, mostly poor, needed proper nutrition and facilities to help them develop the bone structure and muscle tone required for sports participation from an early age.

“We must kill the myth that black people cannot play certain sporting codes because they are black,” the minister told MPs.***

And most tellingly the black ANC East Cape Chair said:
“We [the government] are not going to decide who must be on the team. All we are saying is: expose everybody, give them an opportunity.”

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - They must have been reading my web page.

Anonymous said...

***PA - They must have been reading my web page.***

I doubt it, you haven't challenged Mbeki to a square go so you won't be on their radar.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - They are doing the right thing as I knew they would.