After approx. 60 yrs. of invasion and killing by Israel, the Palestinians are saying, who ? do you mean ex Prime Minister Blair ? that Tony Blair ?
A member of 'the friends of Israel, Mr Blair's comments on this conflict have been few and far between, America's unquestioning support for Israel despite it's crimes, it's occupation, it's trampling on Palestinian human rights have received the 'de facto' support of Blair and now the Palestinians are expected to look on him as the man who will bring them justice.
Blairs legacy will include the suffering of the Palestinians as well as Iraq, sucked in on both issues by his proximity to the cowboy half wit in the White House, I sincerely hope I'm wrong, this is a mountain to climb just to gain acceptance as an equal player, with his background he does not have, nor deserve to have the trust of the Palestinians.
Palestine, along with Iraq presents an opportunity to take a different direction from the American Cretin, his own supporters are leaving the rat infested sinking ship and I hope that GB will take this opportunity to bring hope and peace to Iraq and Palestine but, hey ! it ain't gonna be easy, America is a friend and should remain so, a friend that is, not a boss.
Monday, July 16, 2007
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Do you agree with the Palestinian Ambassador in London, Manuel Hassassian's opinions that:
* that rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon are justified - even if innocent civilians are killed;
* that the famous footage of Palestinians dancing for joy on the streets on 9/11 was faked by the Israelis;
* that Hamas should apologise to the Palestinian people; and that while the Taleban may have been a little excessive in their modus operandi, at least they kept order.
I read somewhere that makinh Blair a middle east envoy is oike asking Harold Shipman to look after your granny, so we're singing from the same hymn sheet there.
I notice, though, that you have a tendency, and a rather childish one at that, to describe anyone you don't like as a cretin or as half-witted. I detest Dubya's brand of politics, and most of what he stands for, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he's stupid. Quite the opposite in fact. When you can screw the electorate, remove their rights, attack their constitution and destroy their economy, you're doing something right. The man's got a Harvard law degree, which would suggest a modicum of intellect. Similarly the slimy, lying weasel that was our PM until recently got away with it for years. Gawd Terl, look at the unreconstituted drivel you write, and even you have one or two supporters. Maybe even you've got a brain in there fighting to get out.
C'mon Tel-boy! You're not even trying to be impartial here. The Palestinians have at least as much blood on their hands as the jooos. A lot of it palestinian...
To which "Palestine" do you refer?
So Terry, is it true you didn't vote for Wendy Alexander, your Labour candidate for the Scottish Parliament on 3 May, and for whom you were election agent?
C4 - Rocket attacks ? I don't know what he said but I doubt that anyone wants to see innocents killed. However I support the efforts of the Palestinians to strike back at their oppressors.
This begs the question of course about whether you regard Israel as justified in killing innocent Palestinian's, much more efficiently as well, and far more of them.
9/11 celebrations ? I don't recall that 'famous' footage but I wouldn't be surprised at some Palestinians jumping for joy nor would I be surprised at the Israelis faking the film.
Again this begs a question, do you think that the Palestinians were the only joyful dancers when that happened ? If you do you ought to get out more and you should start here in Britain.
Hamas apology ? No. There are many many who should apologise to the Palestinians but Hamas whom I don't support would be no where near the head of the queue.
Taleban ? Absolutely, what's the odd amputation for stealing a loaf or a woman stoned to death for being raped when order is being kept, Italians still get nostalgic for well run railways and you could always leave your door open under the Reich couldn't you.
" but I doubt that anyone wants to see innocents killed."
Interesting. Certainly when you then ask the follow up question of "define innocent". That is when true colours are unfurled.
Damnit, I promised myself I would sit this one out.
Jim Lewis - Is there an argument in there somewhere ? You actually seem to be criticising me for insulting people ! You !
Jackart - nice and brief, well done - crap but brief.
David Duff - Come on, we all know how clever you are ! please !
Tartan Hero - Would I lie ? I was so busy getting her elected etc. anyway she didn't need one vote she blew them away------AGAIN !!!
RFS - Go right ahead and define innocent, wasting my time on you has become a habit.
I'm not clever, Councillor, but as a middle-east expert like yourself would know, there are now *two* Palestines and I think it is only fair for you to tell us which one you are referring to.
How would you solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Councillor? Or perhaps more realistically, what steps do you think that Labour government should take?
David Duff - I think of Palestine as being from the river Jordan to the Med. Sea so I suspect that would give us three Palestine's by your logic - Israel - The West Bank and Gaza ?
There should be only one but that's not going to happen, the military might of the Israeli invader and there allies will see to that.
Gaza and the West Bank will some day reunite but, whatever happens the struggle will go on, Israel/America have left the Palestinian people with nothing too lose.
Rumbold - What I would like to see is a return to pre. 1948 Palestine with no Israel, a place where Jews, Christians and Muslims could live in peace, they would all be Palestinians of many faiths and none.
Realistically ? - A Palestinian State with the return of all occupied land and a return of all refugees, an end to all oppression and the dismantling of the Israeli Apartheid Wall, a shared Jerusalem, carry out UN resolutions etc. Surely none of this is new ?
I think of Palestine as being from the river Jordan to the Med. Sea
Just wondering... why do you exclude present-day Jordan from your personal geopolitical carve-up?
It was, after all, the intended homeland of the Palestinians. And incidentally, it's four times bigger than Israel.
Patrick - let me know your thoughts on the Palestinian Israeli conflict - mine are broadly that the Palestinians have had their land, homes, farms, villages etc. taken from them by Jewish settlers - and this is not right - that in essence is why I support their cause.
I get the impression that you find it difficult to be brief because you are not quite as clever as you would like us to think.
"...carry out UN resolutions etc."
Would that include the one creating two states that was enacted in 1948?
"Israel/America have left the Palestinian people with nothing too lose."
Surely you should include Hamas/Fatah as well for their corruption, inability to provide basic ameneties and repression of trade unions?
Not that I want to be pro-Israel but just wondering.
let me know your thoughts on the Palestinian Israeli conflict
I think it's simplistic to break the situation down to Jews and Arabs, but to keep this short I'll make the generalisation.
The Arab-Palestinian exodus of 1948 from one-day old Israel was an horrific event, with both Israeli and Arab forces contributing.
However, Arab-Palestinians have subsequently secured around 90% of old Palestine (Transjordan, now just plain Jordan, being about 80% and the West Bank making up a further 10%). Thus, the Jewish-Palestinians are left with 10%.
Significant fractions of both populations are now indigineous, giving them equal rights to the land of their birth, but these lands are split hugely in favour of Arab-Palestinians.
Therefore, I have little sympathy with the greedy Arab-Palestinian cause.
Yohji - That UN resolution was a disaster and a source of shame for Britain but now, it has to stand to have any chance of a Palestinian state.
I don't agree with your description of Hamas/Fatah what you are doing is parroting the Israel/USA line which we have been fed for so long that people now believe it.
As someone once said 'the mass of the people will easily fall for a big lie before a little one'
Patrick - much better, exodus 19 48 ? that's the Israel's version, it was genocide by the Israeli's.
Lets talk about Israel and Palestine without trying to cloud the issue any further.
Look at Palestine in the years before the creation of Israel and look at it now,
There is Gaza and the West Bank which is occupied in parts.
I won't rehearse the arguments again, but I am truly glad that anyone who describes the Arab Palestinians as greedy is against me.
Let anyone who reads what you have said make up their own minds.
it was genocide by the Israeli's.
There was one forced eviction by Israeli forces (in Caesaria), but apart from that it was a joint effort with the Arab armies. Neither side acted laudably, but there was no genocide. Unless, of course, you have evidence of death-camps which I have missed?
There is Gaza and the West Bank which is occupied in parts.
Yes, notice how Palestinian-Arabs remain within the frontiers of what was originally designated the Jewish portion of Palestine. How many Jews remain in Jordan - the originally designated Arab section?
Not so many. But notice how I don't bandy the word genocide around when it doesn't actually fit.
Patrick - I didn't choose the word Genocide it comes up time and again when you read about this, and still does, about what's happening today - one forcible eviction indeed.
You are being disingenuous here did you do as I asked and look at the map prior to the creation of Israel.
It's not rocket science, there are Palestinians in rotting refugee camps who can see the houses where they lived and the farms that they owned which were their families for thousands of years, now occupied by Israelis, through force.
You are defending the indefensible - should I call it terrorist murder instead of genocide - should I say 'Safety Wall' rather than 'Apartheid Wall' the world continues to see the image of a Palestinian child throwing stones at Israeli tanks, that's the reality.
"Yohji - That UN resolution was a disaster and a source of shame for Britain but now, it has to stand to have any chance of a Palestinian state."
So in other words when you hope the new unified state will carry out UN resolutions you actually mean only resolutions you agree with?
"I don't agree with your description of Hamas/Fatah what you are doing is parroting the Israel/USA line which we have been fed for so long that people now believe it."
1. Hamas has repressed trade unions. That is a fact.
2. Corruption is wildly prevalent. Just before the EU resumed aid to Palestine the Fatah administration had to admit that they had no idea where most of the previous aid had gone.
3. Palestine has little to nothing in the way of basic ameneties.
Those are all verifiable facts, not part of some Israli-Septic smokescreen. Indeed to say it is is just a silly Palestinian smokescreen. Supporting Palestinians and supporting their disasterous leaders are entirely different matters.
Do you agree with said facts in the full knowledge that when I provide sources following your answer all three points will be proven?
"As someone once said 'the mass of the people will easily fall for a big lie before a little one'"
It was Goering. That quote is dragged out on every half witted occasion possible.
Genocide it comes up time and again when you read about this
Really - please direct me to a respectable authority which says this. Unless you can't.
did you do as I asked and look at the map prior to the creation of Israel.
Er, not today. In fact, I can't remember when I last did see one - but I'm pretty confident that they'd tell the same story they always have. What's your point?
who can see the houses where they lived and the farms that they owned which were their families for thousands of years,
No there arn't. The area was pretty much deserted prior to the 1880's.
I do have sympathy with the displaced persons, but there are displaced Jews as well. A line has to be drawn somewhere so that both sides have a homeland, and there will always be unfortunates on the wrong side. This happened in Northern Ireland, in the Balkans, in Pakistan/India...
continues to see the image of a Palestinian child throwing stones at Israeli tanks
Exactly. Arab-Palestinian children are taught to hate before they can even walk. This might be, y'know, part of the problem...
I trust you also argue for the right of return of the Assyrians, Chaldeans and Babylonians, so cruelly dispossessed by invaders over the centuries? Or maybe a restored Ottoman empire, if the Assyrians. Chaldeans and Babylonians are too far back for you (with the added difficulty of being hard for you to pronounce).
I await your reply with interest, and no small excitement, as you are sure to provide a ... unique insight into world affairs
Yohji - 'only resolutions I agree with ? No. Now Israel, there's a UN story isn't it.
1/ Hamas and unions ? have you ever heard of Britain and trade unions ? America ? Etc. Need I remind you, I don't support Hamas.
2/ & 3/ Palestine has been invaded and brutalised for 60 yrs by the thuggish Israeli state, they have been left with nothing, not even hope. I don't accept your propaganda but who would be surprised at anything that happens when you have been subjected to these acts of barbarity.
I think you might find that it was Adolf himself who said that. But on this occasion I'm happy to bow to your superior knowledge of the Nazis.
Your post is just more Israeli/American poison it's become a way of life for people like you who are afraid to face the truth, Israel is a shameful place.
Patrick - We have done this - you have no sense of shame or decency.
Triangularbread - Palestine was stolen 60 yrs ago. Maybe Moses could part the red sea again and bring everyone home, well fed by manna from heaven and led by a fiery wheel in the sky - stop talking like a fool and address the argument.
khosOh Terry, Terry, Terry...
1- I said Israel, USA AND domestic Palestinian leaders (inc. Hamas) were to blame. You said I was reiterating US/Israeli propaganda. Now you tell me you don't support Hamas and that it is hardly alone in repressing Trade Unions. So you admit they repressed trade unions- when previously you claimed it was propaganda. In other words you admit my original argument was right and that your line on propaganda was so much cobblers? Thats what you seem to be saying...
2/3- corruption is hardly a symbol of brutalisation. Similarly brutalisation does not explain the failure of Hamas and other Palestinian leaders to provide ameneties to their people. Your arguement is a poor excuse.
"Now Israel, there's a UN story isn't it."
Hmm? What does that even mean?
If you are willing to accept UN resolutions even when you don't agree with them then why do you attack the UN's creation of the State of Israel- which you disagree with? You can hardly disagree on principle as you've just admitted you accept some UN resolutions you disagree with.
As for your attempt to claim I am sputing Israeli poison, well, might I remind you that you have agreed with my position on corruption, trade unions and failure to provide ameneties. Are you therefore yourself spouting "poison"?
Furthermore your attempt to tar me as a Nazi lover (or that seems the implicit message) is shabby and shameful. Still, insults suffice when you run out of arguements I suppose.
1/ I didn't say Hamas repressed unions I said that unions are repressed in many places. I support Palestinians and prefer Fatah to be in charge but Hamas did win didn't they ?
2/3 - When a country is subjected to what Palestine has been by Israel, normal society is likely to break down, that's what Israel has been trying to achieve for years.
UN resolutions ? Israel are guilty as hell, anyone is entitled to attack any resolution, me included. I regard Israel as a disgrace and Britain shares that shame. I want Israel to give back the occupied territories and give the right of return for refugees, dismantle the apartheid wall etc. I don't expect Israel to vanish and a two state solution is now the only answer. I don't like it one bit but I have to live with that - now why don't you try the truth ?
you have to admit, if you consider the events from a palestinian perspective, it's no great surprise that they are fighting israel.
imagine that you're at home, minding your business, and along comes an army or two to evict you from your land so that jews can be compensated for crimes germany committed.
imagine that (irony intended) you and all your remaining posessions are moved to a ghetto (ghetto= "a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure"), and that 60 years later, your grandkids still live in the same ghetto.
can you see how that might engender resentment?
so now you have two, to be gracious, less than optimal choices for palestinian leadership...but they are running the schools, and they distribute all the local economy...and they occasionally blow up some of the jews who put you in the camp in the first place...wouldn't you support them?
if i may suggest, the best way to "defeat" fatah and hamas is to create functional economies in a functioning palestinian state. this allows you to break the cycle of total control of all jobs and money that exists today with fatah and hamas.
it also sets up the possibility of creating further palestinian and jewish "buy-in" to the idea that a shared future is better for both sides than a future of war.
we in the us seem to have as much trouble creating the conditions for this to happen as the uk and israel, and yet a positive outcome would be in all of our interests.
we presume hamas and fatah would not be thrilled by this sort of development, and it may require us to create "success" through the people, as opposed to through the leadership.
I do not advocate the overthrow of Fatah or Hamas, they have been elected.
Building institutions which will last is important for the future of Palestine but, above all Israel's crimes must be dealt with.
The return of all occupied territories, the return of all refugees, the release of prisoners, an end to all anti Palestinian discrimination including the apartheid wall, then we might see progress.
defeat was a word i chose, as opposed to overthrow, so as to articulate the possibility of electoral replacement.
and you are correct to point out that until palestinians feel "redressed" there will be future conflict.
a bigger question: what can palestinians do to help create a "tipping point" where israeli citizens can push through the factionalism of knesset politics to get solutions moving forward again?
Fake consultant - what can the Palestinians do ? Not much really, they haven't much left except their lives.
The best hope is for the people of Israel to do the right thing and elect leaders who will act in a decent way - I believe that this is not the way the ordinary Israelis want things to be, they are mainly humane decent people who are caught up in the madness, they have been led in the past and are still today let by thugs who care nothing for justice.
Return all land and refugees redress the crimes which have been committed and then talk
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