Tuesday, March 11, 2008

PYM OR THATCHER, WHICH ONE'S THE TORY ?

The death of Francis Pym and the health scare with Mrs. Thatcher during the week got me thinking about the relationship between me and the Tory Party.
Apart from a few local Tories there would not be many if any of them who have ever heard of me but they have been a constant in my life for 50 yrs.

My dad used to quote Nye Bevin with great relish when saying that they, the Tories, "were lower than vermin" this later became "the Tories are vermin" which Nye didn't quite say.

I changed a bit as I got older and met Tories, some of whom managed to change my attitude, I managed with great effort to be civil to them and even enjoyed the company of some and then along came Thatcher, and bang ! I was back to quoting Nye.

The tele. showed pictures the other night of what looked like a sweet old lady doddering around like a normal person, getting on a bit with failing health but, a closer glance showed it to be her, the destroyer of lives, jobs and whole communities, the cause of hundreds of unnecessary lost lives in the Falklands.

The woman who more than any other in modern history done more to create class hatred and political warfare.

The passing of Francis Pym was another part of Tory history passing away.
A patrician one nation Tory who, unlike Thatcher oozed decency and fairness, upper class ? certainly, a beneficiary of nepotism ? no doubt, but also a holder of the Military Cross who defied her over the Falklands Just like the Archbishop of Canterbury Robert Runcie, another Military Cross holder who defied her wishes by praying for the Argentinian dead at the Falklands war memorial service at Westminster Abbey.
That's right, you read that correctly, she did not want prayers said for the enemy dead, what does that say about her ?

When her time comes she will be lauded by the hypocrites and cowards who couldn't stand up to her but, she will be despised and forgotten when people still admire Pym and Runcie and their generation of Tories.

Which one is / was the true Tory ?

25 comments:

Macnasty said...

Cllr, why is it alright for Palestinians to wage war and blow up innocents because - and I quote - "their land is invaded," but not alright for a British Prime Minister to send a task force to recover British territory that Argentina invaded?

Anonymous said...

"the cause of hundreds of unnecessary lost lives in the Falklands."

Surely that was the military junta or are you too blinkered to acknowledge the truth? Generally, the aggressor is the one to blame for a conflict. Unless, of course, you don't accept setting foot on British territory without an invitation an aggressive act?

ShrekBall said...

There is an old adage that you should not take advice from your political enemies.

So the Conservatives are vermin? What a mature and insightful analysis. Your father must have been an intellectual colossus in his day.

Thatcher took on the unions that almost broke the country. She re-established parliamentary rule taking power from the Brothers. Yes there was job losses, but these were losses that should have happened over decades (without the pain) before they brought the country to the verge of going to the IMF like a 3rd world nation with a begging bowl. The fact they did not is a devastating indictment of the failings of the Left to tackle real issues of economy instead of pandering to and buying off their core vote. She did what was needed to make her country great - something very few before her had the balls to do.

Instead successive tory and Labour governments quietly gave in to the bully boy union bosses. Thatcher's real crime in your eyes was not accepting the prevailing political wisdom that Britain was marching towards socialism and decline. Thatcher brought about real economic reforms and turned the country around.

Her and Reagan brought new prosperity to the world and stood up to despots. No, she did not have a MM but in previous posts you have indicated that your lack of military experience does not disqualify you from opinions and policies towards the armed forces. What is good for the goose.

Still - the Armed Forces loved Thatcher and some old soldiers still do because she gave Britain back her pride after the post-war socialist decline.

Your continued reference to the refusal to pray for the enemy dead ignores the feelings of those soldiers who were sent to a war that the Argentinians started and who had to fight tooth and nail to free British subjects from a dictatorial rule they did not want.

The fact you feel the urge to attack her is an indication of just how effective she was in exposing you and your fellow travelers scam of socialism and how poisonous it was.

Rayleen works in a call centre now does she not? That is a job that would not have existed were it not for Thatcher. I work in IT for the financial services - a job and sector that would not have existed were it not for Thatcher.

The pension system Brown destroyed when Labour came to power was built on privatised share ownership. Thatcher allowed the worker to own the means of production through democratised share ownership. She removed billions of pounds of liabilities from the tax payer by privatisation meaning the working man was released from the shackles of propping up failing heavy industry.

My family owe both our jobs, our house, car, holidays and computers directly to the economic reforms of the '80's that Thatcher brought about. Without her I don't know what I would be doing - but I would not be earning enough to support my family.

Pym or Thatcher? Both were Tory. But one was right - and that is the difference you despise.

Just answer me one question Terry. Are we better off now than we were in 1979?

Snailbait's Boss said...

She cannot be both despised and forgotten. She has to be remembered to be despised.

And who would be admiring the Runcie flavour of Tory? You? Not a ringing endorsement of them then.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 11/03/08

The prosecution of the Falklands War was one of the greatest over reactions in history, war should only ever be a last resort, in this case it was the first resort because she used it to save her political skin.

She was the most unpopular PM in recorded history at the time that’s why she went to war, that’s why all those peoples died. Palestine has been occupied by Israel for 40 Yrs. There is no comparison.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 12/03/08

The Falklands War was fought to save Thatcher’s political skin, that’s why all those people died.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 09:29

We can get this sycophantic litany from the Daily Mail and it really is far too long, it doesn’t have a single worthwhile thought in it.

Anyway what’s a few hundred lost lives when she accomplished all that right ?

ShrekBall said...

It is the right of reply.

The lives that were lost were as a result of an aggressor invading to effect regime change. Something I think you are opposed to no?

Surprise, surprise you have not answered the question.

Do you believe that we are better off today than in 1979?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 12:47

The Falklands War was not necessary, it was fought to save her political career, that’s why those lives were lost, she is guilty of one of the most cynical and callous acts in history.

“Do you believe that we are better off today than in 1979”

It’s a rather lightweight question much loved by the chattering classes and can be answered truthfully by opposing sides. i.e. some are better off and some are not, did you think the question was profound in some way ?

a new tory dream said...

I don't believe anyone is anywhere close to being worse off than they would have been without the reforms of Thatcher but, if we look at those who suffer most from poverty, poor housing, lack of education and general ill health in Scotland today, it's no coincidence that most live in Labour-dominated areas.

Scottish Labour has, generation after generation, treated these people with contempt - nothing more than voting fodder. I'm no nationalist but, as in the Milton by-election a few years ago, i'm delighted to see Labour being rejected by communities across Scotland that socialist Labour ideologues have betrayed over years.

ShrekBall said...

What event started the Falklands War? Was it a right-wing junta invading a foreign land?

So you think we are worse off now than in 1979? In what way?

Macnasty said...

So, it's suggested (as good as) by Kelly, that Margaret colluded with the Junta to invade British territory to save her political neck.

Can't say I've seen that theory propounded before Terry, but you always were an innovative thinker.

Now, to bring a wee bit of perspective into what passes for your thinking, before the SNP closes the Last Library in Renfrew, turning that fair shire into a cultural wasteland, why don't you nip down there and borrow either the Max Hasting or Simon Weston book on the Falklands.

Kelly, I despair, I really do. It's only my missionary granny's believe that no one is beyond redemption that keeps me writing to you.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(a new tory dream) 13:23
Thatcher destroyed whole communities and people’s lives, there are lots of people who have seen little or no improvement since the seventies, some spivs have of course cashed in because of her reign.
The Tory Party went from the Party of McMillan and Heath to the Party of Arthur Daly and Del Boy Trotter that’s her legacy.

“hitting old ladies over the head with a brick is a crime, everything else is just business” that’s Thatcherism and some people embraced it with great relish, didn’t they.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 13:54

The invasion was risible only she took it seriously for her own ends, the war wasn’t necessary, those lives were given up for her not for the freedom of the Falkland Islands.

Some people are worse off and some not, if ‘we’ - all of us, are better off why are our prisons bursting at the seams with record numbers ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 14:29

I know it’s frustrating when you can’t land a blow but “Kelly says that Thatcher colluded with the junta to invade the Falklands to save her political neck” This is a blatant lie and looks as if you have given up and are trying to get me to bin your comments, if that’s not the case then you need to correct this.

Anonymous said...

The prosecution of the Falklands War was one of the greatest over reactions in history, war should only ever be a last resort, in this case it was the first resort because she used it to save her political skin.

You really are out of your depth even further than the usual gibbering rubbish on military matters.

24 Royal Marines lying on their bellys with guns trained on them from an invading Argentinian army is not the basis for an over-reaction.

I was there and we did not pray for the Argy dead...in fact we played with them. Do you want some pictures? The Ghurkas you love so much cut the heads off the dead Argies and mixed up their bodies with heads in 45 gallon drums...to make their souls lost forever etc. etc.

Real men fight wars, not armchair generals on the dole like you.

Fighting for freedom from a fascist dictatorship is a noble cause, and that is what we did in the Falklands.

Once again you prove yourself a disgrace, and even worse as a public servant [sic]

Anonymous said...

Some people are worse off and some not, if ‘we’ - all of us, are better off why are our prisons bursting at the seams with record numbers ?

13,000 foreign criminal inmates that were not here pre-1997?

Or is that too easy to extrapolate even for you?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 12/03/08

Would it not be possible to get you back into uniform ? Iraq and Afghanistan would be over in a week.

Real men who fight wars don’t talk like this.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 12/03/08

I should have known that. It’s all the fault of “Johnny Foreigner”

Anonymous said...

Blogger Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 12/03/08

Would it not be possible to get you back into uniform ? Iraq and Afghanistan would be over in a week.

Real men who fight wars don’t talk like this.


How would you know? Everyone in our reunions do...and you who have never served anyone but your own twisted and discredited ideology say different?

A disgrace is what you are.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 08:41

If you could fight like you can talk the Falklands wouldn’t have taken so long.

Real soldiers don’t feel the need to keep on bragging about their exploits.

Anonymous said...

Cllr Terry Kelly said...
(Anonymous) 08:41

If you could fight like you can talk the Falklands wouldn’t have taken so long.

Real soldiers don’t feel the need to keep on bragging about their exploits.


That's almost like saying people who know nothing of soldiers or the military shouldn't pontificate on matters appertaining to them.

You really are a disgrace as a man and public servant.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 15:11

Not really, you’re a bar room hearty, good, as Kipling said ‘at killing people with your mouth’

The number you killed, if any, will no doubt rise with the telling.

Serpico said...

Councillor,

You didn't answer my question:

Do you, or do you not live in a house purchased from the council?

Who was it that passed legislation to allow tenants to buy council properties?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Serpico) 10:14

When did you ask this ? I remember something like this a couple of years ago.

I have several houses some abroad as well as a yacht, but they are my business.

That legislation was passed by the Tories.