The Govt. yesterday made a shameful decision, they decided to exclude doctors from outside the EU from training to become consultants in the NHS.
This is designed to make sure that British doctors will get the top jobs and is quite simply wrong, this blunder makes the following scenario possible, a young just qualified British doctor starts at a hospital on the same day as a young just qualified doctor from India, they become firm friends and their medical careers run in parallel.
Both doctors are regularly promoted and they keep in touch as their career paths cross occasionally, hanging over their head will be the knowledge that the Indian doctor can’t become a consultant, he / she could well be recognised as the best senior registrar in the country by his/her peers but is excluded, how would the brilliant young Indian doctor feel ? Indeed, how would the less brilliant British doctor feel, knowing that their friend would have been a better candidate ? How would a patient feel knowing that their consultant did not get their job on merit alone ?
This stinks to high heaven and is a huge lurch in the wrong direction, it is immoral. I understand that this will become an issue for the Law Lords and I hope they kick it out.
I would like to see the organisations like the BMA who look after doctors interests come out strongly against this, it’s not rocket science, when a job comes up whether it be a medical consultant or a hospital porter it must go to the best candidate.
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But the government spends hundreds of thousands training these junior doctors in this country. If the tax payer pays for the training of the doctor they should have the expectation of a return on investment.
However at the same time if an indian trains at home and then comes to Britain to work then this has robbed the Indian people (the Indian tax payer) of a much needed professional. The doctor is also free to ply his trade wherever he so wishes so he could choose to work in a country without this restriction.
I don't really see the point you are trying to make here.
Tut, tut, Councillor, such very un-socialist attitudes! The poor people of India will be only too happy to have their doctor back again as they are fed up to their back teeth with the West pinching all their best doctors and nurses. What happened to the International Brotherhood of Man? Unless, of course, you are proposing that British doctors are paid at the same rate as Indians in order to stop the cross-flow. Alas, I fear that the best Trade Union in the country, the BMA, would run you out of town.
Terry
There is no easy answer to all of this. We should still allow non-EU doctors to become consultants. However, what we are seeing now is many British doctors jobless because they cannot get posts after they qualify. We really need to reduce the number of non-British EU doctors, and put them on a similar level to those from outside the EU. That would be the fairest thing to do.
(ShrekBall) 14:37
“I don't really see the point you are trying to make here”
Why does that not surprise me - The point is discrimination, you discriminate against someone because of their origin, something nationalists are familiar with and perfectly happy with.
(David Duff) 16:59 -
I’m not in the least surprised to find you supporting race discrimination.
(Rumbold) 17:18 -
That is an argument in favour of privilege, I assume you would regard it as OK for British doctors to go anywhere.
Every doctor who works in the UK should be treated equally no matter their origin.
"This is designed to make sure that British doctors will get the top jobs and is quite simply wrong,"
But Councillor, the government is taking its directive from The Commissar himself. Did Gordon Brown not say "British jobs for British workers"?
Do you not agree with the Prime Minister?
Or are you saying that British trained doctors are somehow inferior and not fit for work in the NHS?
Let's get this straight; you're saying it is racist to give preferential treatment to a British doctors career that has been largely paid for by British taxpayers, in Britain, under the British NHS, over a foreign doctor?
That is what you're saying isn't it?
Terry:
Once again, you start abusing people who are making reasonable points. Unless I missed a bit, all David Duff was saying was that more doctors from poorer countries in the UK meana that there will be less of them in their home countries (cet. par.). It is an interesting debate- does hiring skilled professionals from poorer countries help or hinder that country's development?
"That is an argument in favour of privilege, I assume you would regard it as OK for British doctors to go anywhere.
Every doctor who works in the UK should be treated equally no matter their origin."
I think that British doctors should be able to work anywhere, just as doctors from other countries should be able to work here. But there is still the point about the large numbers of doctors being trained in this country, at the taxpayers' expense, who may have to go abroad to find work. I have friends who may be in this position in a couple of years, and I do regard that as fair either.
Would you not agree that the point could also be made that this policy discriminates in favour of the UK tax payer who has funded the doctor's training? Should the tax payer not expect a return on investment here?
(Eric Bartholomew) 08/02/08 “Do you not agree with the Prime minister” ? - Yes.
Or are you saying that British trained doctors are somehow inferior and not fit for work in the NHS? - you are an idiot.
(Anonymous) 08/02/08 -
I’m saying that to give anyone a job whether it’s doctors or anyone else because of their origin rather than their ability is discrimination and is unacceptable.
I don’t recall using the word racist but if you are saying to an Australian or Indian or Pakistani or New Zealander or American etc. you will not be considered for this post because of your origin, yes that is racist, what would you call it ?
(Rumbold) 08/02/08 -
Whether inadvertently or not you are creating a diversion here.
David Duff did not address the issue, it’s nothing to do with the needs of poorer countries, it’s about blatant discrimination.
No-one who is entitled to be here should be denied a job because of their origin, jobs of all kinds should go to the best candidate, anything else is corrupt.
(ShrekBall) 08/02/08
You are avoiding the issue, this is nothing to do with the British tax payer.
We have already established that the candidate in question is entitled to be here, he/she could have been working here for years and is being denied an opportunity because of their origin.
That is wrong and it's racist.
Terry:
There are two pertinent issues to address. You are right to say that banning non-EU junior doctors from becoming consultants is wrong. But I think that you have failed to address the point that many of us have raised, which is what to do about the British doctors being trained by the taxpayer.
(Rumbold) 18:44
There are not two issues, I wrote an article about one issue, the proposed discrimination against doctors because of their origin.
That’s the one and only issue I’m talking about here, there is no justification for barring a doctor from a post because of his origin, why can’t you deal with that ?
There are many matters that can be discussed about the NHS but, this is a blatant stand alone issue.
Hey Terry, as Ms Alexander's election agent, can you shed any light on who the 'Scottish Industry Forum' are and how they funded her campaign in 2003?
The Sunday Times have a report on it today. Seeing as you were the individual legally responsible for Wendy's election expenses, perhaps you could give them a call and sort out this misunderstanding?
(twogeeonecee) 10/02/08
I’m sure the S.T. can fend for itself.
Losing hurts doesn't it, especially when it's so personal.
i hear the press are also rummaging about in Spark of Genius and the Abbey Mill Business Centre. Some of Wendys fav businesses. (apart from TESCO of course)
Oh Terry, when will it all end.
(4thfloor) 15:02
Why would anyone take you seriously when you remain in hiding ? Why are you afraid to make accusations in public ? What do you have in place of a backbone ?
I think I smell a ‘natrat’
Terry:
The two issues are interconnected, because if you do not cap the numbers of foreign doctors, then you have greater numbers of unemployed British doctors, who have been trained at the taxpayers' expense. There is no easy answer to all of this, but you post cannot be considered in isolation, much as I broadly agree with you.
No, no Terry, I'm concerned you might end up facing charges as a result. The law's pretty clear - the agent is responsible for the candidate's campaign expenditure. £12,000 would almost certainly tip you over the legal limits for Paisley North when added to CLP funding and so on.
As a highly experienced agent and party organsier, I'm sure you're aware this is all separate from breaches of Electoral Commission rules - it all comes under various Representation of the People Acts, particularly 1948 and 1983.
And if that money wasn't declared as constituency campaign expenditure, YOU are the one who goes down for a 12 month stretch, not Wendy.
So I just worry for your continued freedom and ability to blog.
Is a a gnatrat the same as a cybernat? I think we should be told.
What is your opinion of MILF Wendy and her her place in feminist history?
"“Do you not agree with the Prime minister” ? - Yes.
So then what's your problem. There are a finite number of doctor's positions within the NHS and , as you agree with the principle of British jobs for British workers, British doctors should receive preferential treatment and be employed over doctors from other countries. Once all the British doctors have been appointed in a post then, and only then should the NHS appoint foreign doctors.
Now you can't argue with that because theat is the position of the Prime Minister with whom you agree. Or perhaps you don't.
"I don’t recall using the word racist but if you are saying to an Australian or Indian or Pakistani or New Zealander or American etc. you will not be considered for this post because of your origin, yes that is racist, what would you call it ?"
Please define "racism"
Are you saying that New Zealanders and Australians are of a different race group to British people. Most of the Kiwis and Aussies I know look a bit like me. Fair skin, blond hair etc.
I don’t recall using the word racist but if you are saying to an Australian or Indian or Pakistani or New Zealander or American etc. you will not be considered for this post because of your origin, yes that is racist, what would you call it ?
I called it racist, then you tried to backtrack and say you didn't call it racist. Anyway, we are now agreed that you consider giving precedence over foreigners to a British doctor, trained and paid by British taxpayers, in a British hospital, in Britain, to senior jobs in the British NHS, is racist? I think we can safely say that you consider that racist.
Or is it?
It is more than a little disingenuous to merely tag these foreign doctors as being discriminated on because of their origin, it goes way beyond their origin.
Would you think British doctors should run any and all South African medical facilities, and take the plum jobs, because they may, or may not, be more competent than their foreign counterparts in that foreign counterparts own country? It seems to me you would be squealing about colonialism etc.
Let's not forget it is a Labour Government that has brought this in too.
Come off it Rayleen; if you're going to use your dads blog to make statements, at least be prepared to back it up properly instead of most of this backtracking when your argument is found wanting.
So would you agree then that the Labour party or any other organisation should not have women or ethnic minority only, lists of potential candidates,recruits, employees or whatever. It should always be the best person for the job, whatever that job may be. Just wondering cos I heard recently that there should be ethnic minority only, lists of PPc's for certain seats, as there are not enough of them in the House of Commons.
(Rumbold) 10/02/08
This is a single issue because the doctors we are referring to are already working for the NHS at a senior level.
They are being prevented from moving from senior registrar to consultant because of their origin, capping their numbers is nothing to do with it, they are already here.
(twogeeonecee) 10/02/08
Thank you for your concern, I’m sure that I would be able to continue to blog, don’t they have all these facilities ?
(Eric Bartholomew) 11/02/08
“as you agree with the principle of British jobs for British workers”
Is it me or you getting this wrong ? I thought I had just disagreed with the PM.
“ do you not agree” -- Yes, I do not agree.
Anyway your argument stinks of racism - “Once all the British doctors have been appointed in a post then, and only then should the NHS appoint foreign doctors”
It might be rubbish but at least it’s British rubbish.
(Eric Bartholomew) 11/02/08
I’m saying quite simply that to discriminate against someone because of their origin is racist. Unless you are saying ( and I would agree) we are all members of the human race and as such we are all equal but, I doubt if that’s what you mean is it ?
“look a bit like me. Fair skin, blond hair etc.” spit it out Eric the word you are looking for is Aryan isn’t it.
Racism is a belief that being born in a certain place to a certain group makes you inherently superior or inferior - do you believe that ?
(Anonymous) 11/02/08
“I called it racist, then you tried to backtrack and say you didn't call it racist” I merely pointed out that I didn’t use the word racist but for the avoidance of doubt I’ve cleared it up, no backtracking involved.
You don’t seem able to grasp this so I will try again. The doctor is already here, he/she will most likely be a senior registrar who will be denied promotion because of their place of origin, it could hardly be simpler, it’s racist and it’s wrong.
The labour Govt. has not brought this in, this is being discussed with the NHS and the Govt.
(Mary-Anne Hobbs) 10/02/08
What are you on about ?
(like it or lump it) 11/02/08
It’s obviously escaped your notice but, the labour Party does not take orders from me.
I find it untenable to argue that the best person for the job should not get it.
Unless you are inheriting it from lords or royalty or some other such parasites.
(Butterfly) 10/02/08
When someone writes in response to an article on racism and only sees fit to talk about racism by black Americans or Glaswegian Asians I know what I’m dealing with.
It’s not good to enforce any thought. The workers are so keen to flee it because the CIA tells you they are.
"Racism is a belief that being born in a certain place to a certain group makes you inherently superior or inferior - do you believe that ?"
I happen to have fair skin and strawberry blond hair by accident of genetics. I don't believe that having a "white" skin or being "British" makes me any more superior or inferior to anyone else.
I just don't see how you can consider New Zealanders and Australians as a different race to British people? Nationality yes. Race, no.
"I understand that this will become an issue for the Law Lords and I hope they kick it out."
"Unless you are inheriting it from lords or royalty or some other such parasites"
A bit confused here T, are you saying that it's okay for the Lords to operate and kick out legislation you agree with, but they are parasites when they do not?
You don’t seem able to grasp this so I will try again. The doctor is already here, he/she will most likely be a senior registrar who will be denied promotion because of their place of origin, it could hardly be simpler, it’s racist and it’s wrong.
No, it is you who seem to be unable to grasp what was actually said. If there is a doctor who is British regardless of their origin, then they would not be excluded. If however they were merely working here and not British citizens, then they would indeed be excluded.
Does that change your mind?
The labour Govt. has not brought this in, this is being discussed with the NHS and the Govt.
This is squirming in order to avoid naming Labour as being behind this. Very sad and cowardly.
"The Government"... please make it clear that you mean the UK Government in London, not our own one in Edinburgh :p
What would you advocate doing in response to this action by Alan Johnson MP and co, oh "socialist" one? How about transferring powers over immigration and the health professions to the Parliament in Edinburgh, thus we can all unite in rejecting the discriminatory actions of the New Tories in London? This is obviously a rhetorical question as we know your answer :D
(Eric BArtholomew) 12/02/08
I have always regarded insults of the kind where a person is called something like an Irish or Scottish or German or Australian B------ as racist but that is a diversion we are talking about discrimination against someone because of their origin.
We are talking about giving someone a job because they are British not because they are the best candidate, that is wrong, how can anyone defend that.
(Serpico) 12/02/08
Looks like I’m destined to have to spell everything out for you.
Being a parasite doesn’t mean you can’t take a legal decision. If they make a legal decision which I disagree with they can still be parasites. I was thinking more of inherited Lords, Barons, Dukes, Princes, Kings and Queens etc. those parasites.
(Anonymous) 12/02/08
“Does that change your mind“ ? - No it doesn’t you are advocating appointing someone to a position not based on their ability.
“This is squirming in order to avoid naming Labour as being behind this. Very sad and cowardly”
Go back and read the first line of the article, no bloody wonder you prefer anonymity.
(andrew moray) 13:27
“please make it clear that you mean the UK Government in London, not our own one in Edinburgh” I mean the British Govt. the one that governs British people like me and you.
The Scottish Govt. is now in the hands of a party who are only in existence because of their hatred of the English, what would be the point of transferring anything to people like that ?
"I was thinking more of inherited Lords, Barons, Dukes, Princes, Kings and Queens etc. those parasites."
As opposed to those parasites who received their lordships and baroncies in exchange for loans to the Labour Party.
(Serpico) 19:28
Go for it tough guy, identify yourself and make those accusations in public, name the guilty go for it.
Is that you scuttling into hiding again with your tail between your legs.
Serpico, Al Pacino played you as such a tough guy as well.
(Anonymous) 12/02/08
“Does that change your mind“ ? - No it doesn’t you are advocating appointing someone to a position not based on their ability.
But that is a different issue to what you are talking about, but...we are beginning to see some light.
So you say it is racist to give precedence to doctors who are British citizens, in Britain, trained by the British tax payers, in the British NHS system, over foreigners who are here merely working?
Most if virtually all people of this country, and every other, would call that practical and realistic, not racist. Unless you are saying that the Labour party who are the executive of this Government, are institutionally racist?
Go back and read the first line of the article, no bloody wonder you prefer anonymity.
Hmmm... nowhere is the Labour party mentioned. Very squirmy and I bet you wouldn't hold back from naming and shaming any other party would you?
Cowardly.
BTW: There are perfectly rational reason why I am anonymous...some of us don't have the luxury of being able to post on council computers and connections without anonymity.
Those same accusations, and many more, have been made in public many times and no-one has been sued yet.
"I have always regarded insults of the kind where a person is called something like an Irish or Scottish or German or Australian B------ as racist"
That's xenophobia, not racism. But then the "race carde" has always been such an easy one to play, particulalrly by those wishing to stifle open and honest debate.
(Anonymous) 13/02/08
One big excuse for your squalid views - anyone who is legally working in this country is entitled to be treated equally.
“Most if virtually all people of this country, and every other, would call that practical and realistic, not racist“. I didn’t know I was in the presence of greatness.
“BTW: There are perfectly rational reason why I am anonymous” - I don’t believe you, I think you’re just a racist coward.
(Eric Bartholomew) 08:22
It was the race card which dragged you into this mire you couldn’t help yourself.
“by those wishing to stifle open and honest debate” 10 out of 10 for cheek.
(Anonymous) 13/02/08
One big excuse for your squalid views - anyone who is legally working in this country is entitled to be treated equally.
“Most if virtually all people of this country, and every other, would call that practical and realistic, not racist“. I didn’t know I was in the presence of greatness.
“BTW: There are perfectly rational reason why I am anonymous” - I don’t believe you, I think you’re just a racist coward.
And so you end the debate with your silly childish insults, instead of answering any issue.
You claim to have been in politics for 40 years, you are a liar...you've been running from politics with exactly these tactics for 40 years.
You are a shameful disgrace as a public representative.
"It was the race card which dragged you into this mire you couldn’t help yourself."
If you want to identify a racist, look for the one who shouts "Racist" the loudest.
(Anonymous) 14/02/08
“And so you end the debate with your silly childish insults, instead of answering any issue” I have answered every point in this argument. Your problem is that you are not getting the answers you want and you can’t think of any other argument.
I get lots of racist comments sent to my blog and I’ve never had one that wasn’t anonymous, I conclude therefore that they and you are racist cowards.
(Buthelezi) 10:14
“If you want to identify a racist, look for the one who shouts "Racist" the loudest”
or look for those who make excuses for them.
It has always been my experience that innocence does not shriek at the top of its voice. Only the guilty shout.
(ShrekBall) 16:52
I think you should always carry a trumpet in case you run into a parade
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