Saturday, January 05, 2008


Who said this then ? "if I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural : we have taken their country. sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them ? Our God is not theirs... There has been anti semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They only know but one thing : we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"

Here is a hint, it wasn't me, I wish it had been but, I was in my pram at that time. It was none other than the first prime minister of Israel that old blood soaked thug David Ben Gurion, a writer to the Guardian quoted his biographer as saying this last week.
Ben Gurion also said when asked about the plight of the Palestinians " the old will die and the young will forget"

He knew that what they were doing to the Palestinians was a crime but he supported it and passed judgement on those who were driven out, 60 yrs. later we know that he was wrong about 'the young forgetting'
Ask yourself this, if you were a young refugee living there under occupation and the invaders brutality, would you forget ?

I think that you, like the Palestinians would swear vengeance and you would teach that doctrine to your children and beseech them to teach it to their children.
You would never allow them to 'forget' and they won't forget, until justice is done.
Yes folks this is where the sentiment about 'Peace and goodwill to all men' originated and the genocide by Israel still goes on, after all this time have they still no concience ?


Anonymous said...

Ben Guirion was a Statesman who, amongst other things, established the only stable, secular democracy in the middle-East, was a military genius who defeated numerous, powerful enemies, guided Israelis in creating a thriving economy from absolutely nothing and set up a welfare state unmatched anywhere else in the region.

You are a proffessional loser whose scant achievements in the realm of politics are not worth a mention in comparison to such a world leader.

Anonymous said...

A total of 705 Israeli Civilians have been killed by Palestinians during the Second Indifata. A further 568 Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians, mostly on trumped-up charges of fraternisation.

How can you have such a Black-and-White viewpoint of this? This is an extremely complex and tragic situation. I am suspicious of anyone who is so resolutely convinced that one side is right and the other wrong.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 05/01/08 - Ben Gurion - A Statesman, established stable, secular democracy, military genius, a thriving economy, a welfare state - so apart from this lot what did Ben Gurion ever do for the middle east ? He turned it into the most dangerous place on the planet, the place tipped by most to bring about Armageddon, that’s what the little murdering crook did.

The Middle East is the way it is because of his crimes and Israeli genocide.

What would it be like now if it wasn’t so ’ stable’ as you describe it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(anon) Sun. Jan. 06 11.56 :am -

My black and white viewpoint is that Israel exists because of massive crimes committed against the indigenous Arab population and Ben Gurion agrees with me.

“This is an extremely complex and tragic situation.” tragic ? Yes, complex ? Absolutely not.
What’s complex about driving millions of people into being refugees and taking their land and homes and then persecuting those who remain ? It’s been done before hasn‘t it ? it was done to the Jews wasn’t it ? The people who are now the perpetrators.

You and people like you would like the world to believe that it’s complex but you can’t that’s why after all this time, all this killing and all the Israeli and American money you still can’t win the propaganda war and you won’t, because you are wrong.

Don’t try to spin lies about it’s complexity, it’s all too simple and the world can see that.

Jonny Wright said...

It's quite depressing and quite disgusting to see you completely misusing the term "genocide", and diluting its meaning.

Genocide means a systematic attempt to murder an entire population. I agree that the Palestinian people are in a desperate and dire situation - but if you're really suggesting that Israel is in the middle of carrying out a programme of systematic mass murder, you're living on another planet.

It's just this sort of overblown rhetoric that makes a sensible discussion of the Middle East impossible, and makes it so much harder to get to the ultimate goal of a fair two-state solution.

It also makes it much harder to recognise a true genocide when one happens, like the genocide in Rwanda, or the one thats happening right now in Darfur.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Jonny Wright) 18:36 -

“the ultimate goal of a fair two-state solution.”

How can you criticise my language and come away with this ? There is no fair two state solution and their can’t be, go and read what Ben Gurion said, he admits that he and Israel were wrong because they were and are wrong.

Israel is big enough, strong enough, wealthy enough and well enough armed to free Gaza and remove the apartheid wall ( President Carter ) to withdraw from the West Bank and abandon the settlements, there is nothing stopping them from doing this.

Yes it is a very emotive issue, it’s a historical crime, that’s why, some kind of two state solution will be imposed on the Palestinians but it will never be ’fair’

Jonny Wright said...

What you seem to be saying is that the situation will never be fair for the Palestinians, because even if we arrive at a solution to the conflict, they will still have suffered unbelievable injustices.

You're right, but I'm afraid that until we can travel back in time and change history, there's nothing much we can do about it. So it isn't a very useful point to make.

What we need is not a rant about the past: it's a solution for the future. From here, the best possible outcome is a two-state solution. Unless you can think of a better one?

Will you please now answer my question - how can you justify using the word "genocide"? Do you seriously believe that we are witnessing a systematic attempt by the Israeli administration to murder and wipe out the entire Palestinian people?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Jonny Wright) 06/01/08 -
“You're right, but I'm afraid that until we can travel back in time and change history, there's nothing much we can do about it. So it isn't a very useful point to make.”

The founders of Israel travelled back 2,000 years and got away with it didn’t they ?

A better solution is to go back 60 Yrs. and right the wrongs that were done, if Jewish people want to live in Palestine then they would be welcome as Jewish Palestinians.
If the international community were to do the right thing that would be the fair solution.

What is your solution ? stop hiding behind the word genocide, let me help you by dropping it and calling Israel a rogue state which continues to murder and persecute it’s neighbours while stealing their land, is that better ?

Anonymous said...

So what do you say to the 750 Israeli civilians who have been killed in the second indifata? If this is so one-sided, were "the Palestinians" (a crass over-simplification, but one that fits your world-view) right to kill those men, women and children? Are "Palestinian" acts of terror justified?

Yes or no answer, councillor.

Also, what is "Palestine"? Are you aware that there are two seperate factions of Palestinians, each claiming exclusivity of government, and each with a bewildering array of members, with a range of backers, from the good, to the bad and the deeply ugly? The same could also be said of Israel. "Israelis" come from an enormously broad range of ethnic and religious groupings - as do Palestinians. The "Jewish" Israeli army contains Jews - both Orthodox and Reform, Druze, Christians, Russians and Muslims - yes, Muslims. What do you say to the Arab-Israelis who pray to Mecca, but believe in the state of Israel? Do they fit in with the "simplicity" of the situation? Do you even know who what the word "Druze" means? Can you even name the President of Israel? How many members of the cabinet can you name?

You are unbelieveably simplistic. Go back to ruining Renfrewshire, and keep out of the Middle-East, an issue that you are completely unqualified to comment on.

Anonymous said...

It is a typical leftist anti-Semitic attack to blame Israel for all of the Middle East problems. And also to claim that the land is stolen.

The simple inconvenient fact is that there is a larger palestinian population in Jordan than there is in Israel. And Jordan pre-dates the creation of the nation state of Israel by 2 years. So why is it that it is the Israelis that need to accommodate a "2-state" solution? Why is no one up in arms over Jordan "stealing" palestinian land? Especially when Jordan was created it was carved out of so much of what was the original mandate for Israel?

Both Israel and the Palestinians have received international aid. The Israelis have use their lesser share of this pot to turn 0.29% of the Middle East from desert into a productive country. Yasser Arafat used their pot to buy weapons and teach their children to kill.

Do you honestly believe that the Israelis are committing genocide on the Palestinians?

Do you honestly think that a country that occupes a little over a quarter of 1 percent of the total land mass recongnised as the Middle East has turned that area from utopian paradise into the hole that it is now?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 11:21 -

“It is a typical leftist anti-Semitic attack “

what’s really typical is to describe anyone who disagrees with you as anti semitic it means you don’t have a case, or maybe you think all those Jews who agree with me are also anti semitic and of course Ben Gurion, he was anti semitic too wasn‘t he.

“Do you honestly think that a country that occupes a little over a quarter of 1 percent of the total land mass recongnised as the Middle East has turned that area from utopian paradise into the hole that it is now?”

I believe that you or anyone else who does not accept that the creation of Israel is the reason for the dangerous situation in the Middle East is either a fool or a liar.

Rabbie said...

'Swear vengeance, teach it to your children and beseech them to teach it to their children.'

Councillor, you're undoubtedly a bonny revolutionary, (at a safe distance)but you're a disgrace as a father.

Terry baiter said...

for the purposes of clarity, I am responsible for the first and second anonymous comment on this page, as well as the reply to your response to the second comment, which has not yet been published.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 10:15 -“Are Palestinian" acts of terror justified, yes or no? “

People who demand yes or no answers usually don’t have a very strong case. I believe that every violent death is a tragedy. The real acid test is for people like you to say what your attitude would be if you were a young Palestinian living in Gaza, if I was and my courage didn’t fail me I would be fighting the occupier at every opportunity.

“You are unbelieveably simplistic.”

I’m not the one asking for yes or no answers am I, now that is simplistic.

I first started taking an interest in the Palestinian / Israeli dispute at the time of the ’Black September’ movement, that makes my interest/ involvement about 40yrs approx. Consequently I do not consider that I am completely unqualified to comment on the Middle East.

I think what makes me’completely unqualified’is the fact that I disagree with you isn’t it ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Terry baiter) 16:41 - That’s clarified then right ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) 16:35 -

I expect that from you. You would roll over and tell your children to do the same, what would they think of their father I wonder.

Terry-Baiter said...

Och, councillor, I can't be bothered answering you. I take an interest in the Middle-East - though, unlike you, I don't claim to be an expert. I am a strong supporter of Israel's right to existence, but I try to see beyond the one-sidedness and empty sloganeering that you seem to have got sucked into. This IS an extremely complex situation.

By the way, the answer to your initial question, "what would the middle-East be like without Israel"?

Pretty much the same as it is now. Only, instead of 99% of the land surface being covered by foolish, thuggish, despotic, Islamic fundamentalist regimes, there would be an additional state, Palestine, which would be equally thuggish, despotic, foolish and succeptible to the influence of Islamic fundamentalists.

Incidentally, it would also be devoid of the cellphone (developed by Motorola in Israel); centrino chips; ingestible video cameras (for use in surgery) and instant messaging - to name a handful of the technological advances made by Israeli scientists.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(terry baiter) Tues 8th 9.18 am.

Thank goodness you couldn't be bothered then !

You missed the bit about the Israei lead at the cutting edge of torture methods.