Friday, January 25, 2008


Do you think that the 'Polis' are a special case ? entitled to more money ? better conditions ? if so why ? What about Firefighters ? Nurses ? Soldiers ? Plumbers ? yes plumbers and Sewerage workers, if they went on strike they would kill more people than armies.
As Woody Allan once said, " not only is there no God but you should try getting a plumber on weekends"

There is this argument about Police pay which I think is getting a bit muddled as some people think they are special and should get xyz etc. I don't agree, if they should get their pay rise backdated then fine but, only because their argument is right, nothing else.

The Police is a job like any other and they should be allowed to strike, I expect Free Marketeers to support me here, what is the point of going into a job and then saying hey ! I'm special, this is dangerous when you knew that before you went in.

I still can't get my head round the Police demo. I thought it was hilarious, the Police demonstrators said there were 20,000 and the Police on duty said there were less, force of habit I suppose.
They thought that they had everyone on their side until the demo passed a group of Anarchists who started shouting and calling them " a bunch of overpaid lazy b------s - hilarious.

What wasn't hilarious however was that a well known BNP leader was marching at the head of the demo. with the full blessing of the organisers. Who came up with that idea ? was it a deliberate provocation ? it looks like it and it certainly lost them my support.
This was stupid and crass by whoever was responsible and they will have a hard time living it down, I think and hope that this has lost them a large amount of public support, they deserve to lose it.


jamesiecotter said...

took me a while for me to realise it was the English/Welsh bobbies who were revolting.

it would be helpful if you could make it clear if you are commenting on English regional matters or for that matter anywhere outside Bonnie Scotland, which we know is the epicentre of the known universe

Jennifer Mc said...

Your last post on the subject was not supportive of the police so they can't be said to have lost your support can they?

Tony Benn was also in attendance. Does he deserve to be condemned because someone from the BNP was there. You're not seriously going to try and argue he's some sort of bigot are you or is it one rule for Labour Party members and another for the workers?

No change there then.

Before you start no I am not a BNP supporter. They are one party who truly are scum.

Marissa said...

The BNP are sub human trash but since when did keeping bad company invalidate an argument. If that were the case Tony Blairs close relationship would have made every policy the Labour Party advocated under his leadership wrong and we all know that isn't the case. Or do you have a shocking announcement to make?

Serpico said...

Oh dear. Better hope you never get mugged or have to call the police any time soon.

The Labour government negotiated a pay deal and then reneged on that pay deal.

What's the point of having an arbitration process, agreeing a pay increase and then having the payer (the Labour govt.) backtrack?

I'll bet that if this happened to factory "workers", you would be foaming at the mouth decrying the capitalist running dogs of British industry.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(jamesiecotter) 25/01/08 - I think it takes a while for you to realise most things.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Jennifer Mc) 25/01/08 -

“Your last post on the subject was not supportive of the police”

I thought I’d made it clear that I support the Police like any other workers I just don’t regard them as a special case.

Anyone who encourages the BNP does not get my support.

Tony Benn would have been there to support the Police and I think he would have been appalled at the presence of the BNP.

You don’t have to be a BNP supporter to share their values, if only that was the case.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Marissa) 26/01/08 -

I think you are missing the point, it looks to me like the Police done this deliberately and they deserve whatever trouble it causes them.

Linking Tony Blair into this smacks of desperation.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Serpico) 08:12 -

I say pay them - Are you suggesting that the Police would refuse to help me if I was mugged ? That would be bent coppers surely, but we don’t have any do we ?

maggra said...

Mr Kelly,

please explain this to me:

' A WOMAN suffering from breast cancer has run out of time to benefit from a potentially life-extending drug which the National Health Service (NHS) denied her, even though she was prepared to pay for it.

Colette Mills has been told by doctors that in the four months since she asked for the drug the disease has taken such a hold in her body that the cancer will no longer respond to the treatment.

She is the victim of a ruling which states that any patient who wants to pay for additional drugs not prescribed by the NHS should lose their entitlement to their basic NHS cancer care and pay for all their treatment. She was prepared to pay for the drug but not her whole treatment.

Mills, a 58-year-old former nurse, said: “I am just absolutely gutted. I just cannot believe people make these decisions about other people’s lives.

“It wasn’t going to cost them. I was going to pay for it. How can they say this policy is far more important than somebody’s life?

“The NHS has taken this opportunity away from me and, if they are doing it to me, they are doing it to a lot of other women as well.”

The government claims that to allow some patients to pay for additional drugs on top of their NHS treatment creates a two-tier system between those who can and cannot afford them.'

You claim to be a socialist.

Please explain why this woman is about to die under a socialist system.


totallyun-pc said...


The original POLICE pay deal has been in place since the late 1970s after an Inquiry by Lord Edmund Davies and the pay has been increased annually on 1st September by an index that, amongst other things, seeks to ensure that in the absence of the right to take industrial action, officers' pay does not fall behind other groups of workers.

Whilst the index has changed over the years it has provided overall fair, not excessive, pay rises.
What was the pay offer for 2007/08?

Well in July last year, the Official Side of the Police Negotiating Board (PNB) offered 2.325% payable from 1st September 2007. This was a majority offer by the Official Side, with the Home Office indicating they would stage the payment.

The Staff Side (representing all police officers) of PNB rejected this offer, and using an amended, fairer and more transparent index of private and public sector worker salaries, put forward a counter claim of 3.94%.

Why put forward an alternative pay claim?

The alternative claim of 3.94% tabled by the Staff Side of PNB includes an element of compensation for the move from a private sector index to a public sector index at the most disadvantageous time, i.e. when public sector average increases are falling and private sector increases are rising.

Previously the index used was the median of private sector pay, which in 2007 would have produced a 3.39% increase.

Staff Side sought to adopt a weighted average rather than the median, reflecting more fairly the number of workers covered by the awards included.

How has this dispute come about?

Last year there was a failure to agree on the proposed award of 2.325% at an extraordinary meeting of the Police Negotiating Board and the matter was referred to conciliation, where both sides of the PNB again failed to reach agreement and the matter was then referred to arbitration.
At the independent Police Arbitration Tribunal, the panel recommended a figure of 2.5% from September 1st. Arbitration is binding on both sides but not on the Home Secretary who is required to ratify the award for it to be implemented in law.

So what is the problem?

This is the first occasion the Home Secretary has failed to ratify a police pay arbitration award.The Home Secretary can choose to ratify the award or impose an alternative pay award if she can demonstrate that it is a matter of utmost national importance. The argument given for not ratifying the arbiters’ decision was the need to keep inflation down and to keep police pay in line with a 2% public sector pay policy.

Just so you know.... this isn't about a pay rise, and it isn't about being special. We are in a unique situation where we are unable by law to take any direct action, and like you say, I would spit on those that did and deem them unworthy of the same cloth I wear if they did...... Its the principle of withholding what basically amounts to withholding about £180.00 from every serving officer, not a lot, but far worse is the erosion of the basic incremental agreement in line with inflation.

regards and hope its not too cold up there!

Michael said...

The point about police pay would seem to be that the government having had the matter put to mutually agreed arbitration, then unilaterally refused to accept the result of that arbitration.

That is rather akin to a stronger party breaking a contract with a weaker party.

Totally unethical behaviour!

But then, one has come to expect a total lack of integrity from politicians.


Anonymous said...

Do you then agree that the Home Office was right to tell the Federation that they were getting a certain pay deal and then go back on that promise behind closed doors? After all, that is what this dispute is about.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

So the BNP try to hijack a pay rally for the police... The police federations state that they were embarassed at his presence, but could do nothing about it, as "We live in a democracy after all" (google key words "Police pay protest BNP")

The only reason that the police are protesting is that the Labour govt in England and Wales have reneged on the deal brokered through arbitration. Thankfully the Scottish government have seen fit to honour that agreement.

I'm sure that all right minded individuals are behind the police but that even they would have expected the immature minority, that make up your socialist friends
to find this situation 'Hilarious'.

BTW I must thank-you though for giving me the impetus to try to understand better what modern socialism is all about. Socialist
and World Socialism have been most illuminating. Mature and articulate, I can't wait until your comrades at arms, in the erhm... 'struggle'..., get into power and make everything better for us all...

Anonymous said...

Terry, you said "The Police is a job like any other and they should be allowed to strike, I expect Free Marketeers to support me here". I do up to a point, the problem being that the police hold a monopoly position when it comes to law enforcement, our rights to enforce the law and to protect ourselves have been chipped away over the years. There is no free market in law enforcement, if there was we could tolerate them striking.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(maggra) 27/01/08 -

Firstly, this is not happening under Socialism.

You might want to consider that she was turned down on grounds of clinical reasons as well as costs.

I think that giving this woman permission to buy these drugs is wrong but as it is no different from many other breeches of the philosophy of the NHS I would allow it, buying her own drugs is not allowing her to skip a queue or disadvantage anyone.

Under Socialism this would not happen.
There should be no private profit from medicine of any kind, that includes Pharmaceutical companies who invent drugs and then make obscene profits because the drugs are capable of saving lives.

All drugs and treatments free, everything related to medicine non profit making then the drugs and their costs are not an issue.

This situation is caused by Capitalism not Socialism, maybe the drug manufacturer would, under these tragic circumstances just supply the drug free, for humanitarian reasons, try asking them that.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(totallyun-pc) 27/01/08 -
Sir, I would be happy to pay the Police what they are asking for with the following proviso, in future :-

The Police are not a special case - They have the right to strike - they can negotiate like everyone else - no special formulas - no special deals on retirement or pensions - they are doing a job like everyone else.

I think that’s fair.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Michael) 09:41

“But then, one has come to expect a total lack of integrity from politicians”

Cheap shot, how would you like it if someone said

“ but then, one has come to expect a total lack of integrity from the Police”

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Anonymous - read my last couple of comments.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(The Incorrigible Plagiarist) 11:14 -

The stories I read said the Police welcomed the BNP guy.

The Anarchists shouting and calling them “lazy overpaid b------s is hilarious, just like the Judean people’s front.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 15:51 -

Well said that man ! Form your own police force and compete for the work, show the free market spirit.

Do you think there could be a rival Police force ?

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

The stories I read said the Police welcomed the BNP guy.

Where did you read these stories?

"Stories" does seem appropriate!

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Plagiarist - newspapers

PC South West said...

It appears to me that you are quite simply another ill informed person who is prepared to put down words with only half the facts.
The federation had no idea who the BNP leader was at the time of the march. And even if they did there isn't anything they could have done about him anyway.
In case you didn't notice firefighters did go on strike with the army taking over and the Police making escorts for green goddesses.
When I am next rolling around in the gutter with a drunken yob at 3am I will have a look for a plumber to assist me.
But dont worry I am sure you will be tucked up in you warm bed while we are doing that!!
And I think you will find 90% of Police would never strike.

ShrekBall said...

You think it is fair that the police can strike? Fair enough.

Would you then support the police if they went to the picket lines to protest the government reneging on a collectively bargained and agreed pay deal?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(PC South West) 28/01/08 -
I haven’t heard or read anywhere any expression of regret from the Police about the BNP being at the head of their march.

“In case you didn't notice firefighters did go on strike” That’s a bit silly, I did notice, I supported them.

“When I am next rolling around in the gutter with a drunken yob at 3am I will have a look for a plumber to assist me“.

Is this a Police social night you are talking about ?
( I now have to explain that that, was a joke )

Does rolling around in the gutter make you a special case ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 09:53 -

“Would you then support the police if they went to the picket lines”

The particular issue is irrelevant I would support any worker with the proviso that I agreed with their case.

ShrekBall said...

It is very relevant as you are attempting to change the terms of reference of the debate.

You are trying to tell us that the police consider themselves special and entitled to extras. That is not what their dispute is about.

They are protesting because their Federation collectively bargained on their behalf for a backdated pay deal. The government agreed. Only after this did it leak (the Home Office did not even have the decency to put it out in a press release) that the pay offer would not be backdated.

In language you can understand would you not agree that this is an accurate representation of the situation: The employer reneged on a collective pay deal worked out with a union and the employees are now very unhappy and are agitating.

Scunnered, O'Aberdein said...

Terry, you should change your strap line to

'Have shovel, will dig'

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 13:21 “It is very relevant as you are attempting to change the
terms of reference of the debate”

Who set those terms then ? If you want someone to debate with you and do as you tell them then do elsewhere.

PC South West said...

It's definitely not about the money! but integrity, decency and what is right. The underhandedness of the home secretary is quite simply appalling and she should resign.

ShrekBall said...

Those terms were defined by the Federation and the Home Office. It is their dispute so they get to set those terms, you and I simply get to comment on it. That is what this has always been about.

So would you not agree with my earlier assessment? "The employer reneged on a collective pay deal worked out with a union and the employees are now very unhappy and are agitating."

I would suggest that you are uncomfortable supporting the government in this dispute because you agree with the principle of collective bargaining and recognise that the government broke their promises. So rather than attempt to defend them you set up a straw man of the police demanding "better conditions and pay" and hope that people will engage you on this and be more sympathetic.

So how about I ask you this then:

Do you accept the Federation's complaint that the government are not going to honour a collectively bargained pay deal? And would you support the police in their protests against this?

Michael said...

Councillor Terry
(January 28, 2008 5:55:00 PM)

If you think my comment was a cheap shot, then why did you reuse it in context of the Police?

The comment doesn't cause me any particular like or dislike, but given your own words, in using that comment you would seem to be guilty of hypocrisy.

For the record, I am not a police officer, but I am someone who thinks that arbitrated agreements should be honoured.

But then, perhaps you do not?

Best wishes anyway.


Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(PC South West) 29/01/08 -

I don’t think it’s wise for Police officers to call on other people to resign.

I have already said that I would pay the money and start with a clean sheet where everyone including the police would be treated equally.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 30/01/08 -

I’m just pointing out that you don’t make the rules.

I have already said that the money should be paid and a line drawn under this and then treat everyone the same.

You are right I am uncomfortable, because the Govt. brought this on themselves by creating a special case.

Is having a pay formula collective bargaining ? If so I want all workers to have what you’ve got.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Michael) 08:27

“If you think my comment was a cheap shot, then why did you reuse it in context of the Police“ ?

Undignified squirming Michael, put it down to experience.

“But then, perhaps you do not“ ? another cheap shot.

Nick said...

I can't believe people on this thread a boo hooing over a bunch of right wing, racist, sexist, anti-gay thugs in uniform.

Anyone remember Thatcher's boot boys barbarity during the poll tax riots, the miners strike etc? They don't deserve support.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Nick) 31/01/08 - Nick have you ever considered the diplomatic service, I see potential here.