First some confessions - I want to see England win the rugby world cup for two reasons because I'm British and because I read about the S.A. players, some of whom are still tainted with racism.
I will not however be jumping around celebrating all that much and, here comes the controversy, only 4 of the England squad of 22 do not come from a privileged background of wealth, private schools and famous universities.
I don't believe that that, is a coincidence, any more than it is in Scotland, the reason that rugby is a non event in Scotland is because it is elitist, it might not be the fault of individual players who would no doubt be happy to play with and against anyone.
The fact remains though that the overwhelming majority of Scottish kids have never played and never will, reason ? more controversy here, millions could be spent on facilities and coaches etc. but the outcome would never justify the expenditure because the game is just not good enough, not skillful enough, too contrived, sorry rugger lads but that is M.O.
Fitba - Scotland were brought back down with a bump against Georgia, they have had a glorious run but it looks exactly as all the experts said (me included) that France and Italy will go to the next stage, I hope I'm wrong.
You might accuse me of raining on Scotland's parade but, the other night Scotland, how can I put it ? were humiliated.
Let's stop kidding ourselves, Scotland, needing every point faced Georgia who had nothing to play for, Georgia were missing their Captain and vice Captain, they played a sixteen year old and two seventeen year old's, one of whom was their goalkeeper who had never played a first team game for his club, he never had a save to make.
This was as bad a result and performance as anything we have seen, we can't play as bad as this against Italy, problem is of course we can play a hell of a lot better and still lose to the Italians who are world champions and don't often lose when the chips are down, still it's 90 mns. and eleven against eleven so ! roll the dice.
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105 comments:
Do you realise how ridiculous you look sitting in judgement on "racist" south africans or "Posh" Englishman.
You're a buffoon.
TKMax lets hope that RSA win, if for no other reason than you will fume for weeks after about it.
So the nasty, tainted, racist Springboks won the Rugby World Cup?! What a joy it was to watch the game in the company of a black South African who cheered like a loony everytime that horrid vile white supremacist boer Percival Montgomery kicked another 3 points. (Hopefully I haven't lost you in the sarchasm Terry) It may be worth pointing out that the England team you were supporting was in fact bolstered by several South African players including Matt Stevens and good ol' Mike Catt. People who I am sure you would categorise the same as Henry Crun - just a passing thought.
It is true that rugby is still perveiced as an elitist sport. But that is due in large part these days to people like yourself displaying the worst kind of inverted snobbery.
***only 4 of the England squad of 22 do not come from a privileged background of wealth, private schools and famous universities.***
Wealth, fair enough I can't comment on the bank balances of the parents of any of my team mates let alone parents of England Internationals.
Private Schools - excuse me but didn't the scion of New Labour (Brother Tony) send his kids to private school?
Famous Universities - I suppose you have proof that it was the "old-boys network" that got them their places and not scholastic endeavour?
You argue that rugby is elitist and noninclusive. Mmm...
A straw poll of my club proves you wrong. The last club captain is a gas fitter, the captain before him is a duty manager at a fast food outlet. Of my 2nd XV team mates 3 are currently unemployed, 2 are labourers, one is a ticket collector on the trains and I'm an admin worker in a construction company. Hardly the upper class elite people like you paint us to be!
The truth is Terry, rugby is one of the most inclusive sports in the world. It takes all shapes and sizes to make up a team. There are clubs with teams for all levels of ability. And more importantly when was the last time you heard of a rugby referee being hit with coins? Or rugby fans tearing up seating because their team didn't get a penalty.
You and those of your ilk who decry rugby as elitist do so because you don't understand the game and as with many things if you don't understand it it MUST be bad!!
Any good coach will tell you that rugby is a game played in the top two inches (of your head, i.e., you have to use your brain) so I suppose anyone not used to using those top two inches would find it intimidating
Not skillful enough? Nah, you just don't understand it. It is very skillful, especially around the Stand Off position. That is like saying that target shooting or darts is not skillful enough, just because it is not football.
And I love the fact you choose sides based on who you despise the least. Except the problem with that is that England played 2 white South Africans on Saturday as well. You need to give that one a bit more thought, but well done at at least trying.
Jackart - I take it from this that you are happy to see people playing sport and being selected because of their posh background or their white skin rather than their talent and ability ? And you call me a buffoon !
Anon - Correct but, I intended to write about the inequalities in rugby here and in S.A. Anyway.
Unless of course you are going to tell me that they don't exist.
Actually the SA coach is quitting now because he says there is too much pressure on him to pick black players who are not up to test match quality.
Apparently there is too much political pressure on him to implement racist selection policies from the ANC government.
And I don't think you can say that the English team is selected because of their posh backgrounds? What proof do you have of this? Or is this just some more stuff you made up and are trying to pass off as fact?
I've often wondered about this strange West of Scotland prejudice against rugby and would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Why is it that schools with a strong ethos tend to play the oval ball game over football?
Although Scotland's fee paying schools have produced some legends of the game, particularly the Edinburgh schools. Hastings Brothers, Calder twins etc. but plenty of Scottish rugby legends have hailed from less well off backgrounds - Craig Chalmers & Garry Armstrong to name but 2.
It's pretty much a working class game in Wales and is certainly the working class game in New Zealand as well as the pacific Islands.
Wasn't it heartening last year to see Bell Baxter school of Cupar win the Scottish Schools cup.
(A state school)
As a card carrying SNP member, I'd also like to say that I would have dearly loved England to win the World cup again. (I suppose I'll have to explain it to you, lest you accuse me of lies, but having the opportunity to play the reigning world champions again in our Northern hempishpere 6 Nations competition would have been superb!)
Political Atheist - It's the tired old inverted snobbery line again, how many more times ?
"Private Schools - excuse me but didn't the scion of New Labour (Brother Tony) send his kids to private school"? What relevance has this ?
Do you actually believe that prince Edward get to Oxbridge through scholastic endeavour ? Do you want me to take you seriously ?
"A straw poll of my club proves you wrong" no it doesn't the people who play top class international rugby are from an elite background and, as to your team mates, I have never in my life met any plumber with the skill to play football who would have chosen rugby.
"when was the last time you heard of a rugby referee being hit with coins? Or rugby fans tearing up seating because their team didn't get a penalty."
They don't throw coins or tear up seating because they are too well bred to behave like that, that's what you mean right ?
"You and those of your ilk who decry rugby as elitist do so because you don't understand the game" You haven't a leg to stand on here, it's just so easy to understand and bereft of skill.
"Any good coach will tell you that rugby is a game played in the top two inches (of your head, i.e., you have to use your brain) so I suppose anyone not used to using those top two inches would find it intimidating"
A good way to finish P.A. Insult instead of argument - why would anyone find rugby intimidating ? Is it because it's too skilful, too complicated, too tough ? Get a life, you will always get players from the ranks of failed footballers.
RFS - "That is like saying that target shooting or darts is not skilful enough, just because it is not football." Not so, IMO rugby is not skilful it lacks fluency it is elitist and I'm not keen on a sport that I could probably still play.
What we saw on Saturday night was a game being played between players, some of whom, were there because of privileged backgrounds or the colour of their skins, that is unacceptable to me and to make matters worse the game was rubbish.
"just so easy to understand"
Explain the offside rule?
Explain the binding rules for the front row?
Explain the marked catch?
Explain the rule relating to a kick to touch on the full - paying particular attention to being inside and outside the 22?
Explain the reasons for not collapsing a maul?
How many rules does football have, how many does rugby have? (PA, let him fall into this trap himself)
Oh, yeah - and the black South African? Also sang the full national anthem in both English and Afrikaans while clutching the badge of his Springbok jersey.
"I'm not keen on a sport that I could probably still play."
Training Tuesdays and Thursdays 7pm sharp on the pitch. Forward session this week in light of the game at the weekend.
the people who play top class international rugby are from an elite background
Could that be because inverted snobs like yourself refuse to let their kids play rugby because it's a game for posh kids???
Of course, that argument falls down in the borders of Scotland, the South West of England, Wales, New Zealand, Canada, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Italy, France, Romania, Georgia, Portugal, Spain, Germany, Czech repbulic, Andorra...
Although I do believe that in Australia, Union is still perceived as something of an elitist sport way behind, Cricket, Aussie rules and rugby league as a pastime... so you could be onto something...
PS congratulations on getting in the Prince Edward - Oxbridge argument again... feels like I've never been away...
RFS - The ANC government are wrong to do this just as the S.A. Rugby Establishment are wrong to continue their racist policies.
Only 4 of the English pool are not from a privileged background of private education, wealth top Uni's etc.
I will say it again what we saw on Sat. night was a game played between players some of whom were there because of privilege and some because of the colour of their skin, and you defend that.
Before we get onto dissecting your latest dissemblings, I must say it amused me to note that despite your rants towards Henry Crun you have chosen to ignore my comments regarding watching the racist South Africans beat the posh English with my black South African friend.
***"Private Schools - excuse me but didn't the scion of New Labour (Brother Tony) send his kids to private school"? What relevance has this ? ***
It has every relevance, 'twas your good self who threw the first stone regarding the "privileged background of wealth, private schools and famous universities.". By your own argument, the Blair children are from a privileged background and are to be despised.
***They don't throw coins or tear up seating because they are too well bred to behave like that, that's what you mean right ?***
Well we were certainly taught right from wrong by our parents if that's what you mean by "well-bred". Or is it only posh people who teach good behaviour, morals and social responsibility to their children?
***"You and those of your ilk who decry rugby as elitist do so because you don't understand the game" You haven't a leg to stand on here, it's just so easy to understand and bereft of skill.***
Okay, explain the Rugby Union offside law to me and how to beat it.
***why would anyone find rugby intimidating ? Is it because it's too skilful, too complicated, too tough ? ***
Is rugby too skilfull - not at all anyone can learn the necessary skills to play the game at some level.
Is rugby too complicated - if you don't have the patience, wit or understanding to take the time to learn the laws of the game, perhaps. But then the referee is always there to keep you right.
Is rugby too tough - it IS a tough game, in the same way that boxing or gaelic football or ice hockey are "tough" games. It is a contact sport which has very strict laws for player safety and provided you play to the laws and use the techniques taught by your qualified coaches you may have a few bumps and bruises, but no more than you would get playing in a soccer sunday league game.
***you will always get players from the ranks of failed footballers.***
Terry, failed or otherwise, any footballers who wish to take up egg-chasing are always more than welcome. Rugby is an inclusive sport that makes no distinction based upon geographic location, religion, colour or race.
No Terry, by your reasoning the English squad should have been several thousand strong because a lot more than 30 "top university" graduates play a high level of rugby.
What we seen was a game played between two teams representing the best players available. What you did was then project your own prejudices onto those teams.
Says more for you than it does for the sport as you just ignored the recent history of Rugby Union and the development of the academy system which, by definition is a slow burner, and retro-fitted envy politics onto it. Great, that explains that list I had to compile for your committee some years ago.
Only 4 of the English pool are not from a privileged background of private education, wealth top Uni's etc.
Which 4 is that?
No Terry it is Sophilism (a logical fallacy first noted by Socrates) to suggest that Because I dissagree with you I must be in favour of Discrimination.
Teams want the best players. Habanna for example (not white: coloured) or Englands Raging bull captain Phil Vickery (Not Posh: a Cattle farmer from Cornwall)
It is you, with your chippy notions of "equality" that is being discriminatory. If the best 15 players are white, why should a Black man get in because of some ridiculous quota? Many of the "posh" lads in the engalnd squad went to good schools on scholarships.
When it looked like SA was going to win, I thought, as a consolation, at least you don't like it.
I.P. I'm not aware of any West Scotland bias against rugby.
"Why is it that schools with a strong ethos tend to play the oval ball game over football?" Do they ? Did you decide which schools have a strong ethos ? Would you like to name the schools which don't have a strong ethos ?
Are you from the upper class wing of the SNP then ?
It might be a working class game elsewhere but not here, not England and definitely not S.A. Are you some sort of clan chief or something ?
RFS - What a lot of nonsense, you could double the rules and I could still play even right now it's a farce for the overwhelming amount of people who play it, it's a joke.
Players who turned out for S.A. On Sat. night were there because they are white and some of the English because of their backgrounds.
RFS - Prepare yourself for a shock, I didn't really mean I could play today, I didn't mean it literally ! oops.
I.P. I'm not aware of any West Scotland bias against rugby.
LoL - I'm afraid that the inverted snob tag fits you all too well Terry. Denial won't make it any less becoming.
Are you from the upper class wing of the SNP then ?
We don't think like that in the SNP. We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns.
It might be a working class game elsewhere but not here, not England and definitely not S.A.
Which rugby clubs have you been in?
I've never visited a clubhouse where it was an issue, but in your own constituency, Paisley rugby club certainly couldn't be described as elitist.
Are you some sort of clan chief or something ?
eh?
I.P. - I meant of course the British Isles (ex. Wales) and S.A. I thought you would have realised that, still.
Prince Edward ? Your answer ?
P.A. - 1/ lots of blacks were cheering on the team, some of the players are there because the blacks don't get the same opportunities, try tackling that.
2/ "By your own argument, the Blair children are from a privileged background and are to be despised."
Now you are just making things up, Blair has nothing to do with this, where did I say that anyone was to be despised ?
3/ "Or is it only posh people who teach good behaviour, morals and social responsibility to their children?" Well ! The SNP is a broad church indeed. Are you a Laird or what ?
4/ "Okay, explain the Rugby Union offside law to me and how to beat it." Nonsense double the rules and it's still a game of little skill .
5/ Rugby is! intimidating, not because of skill, or being complicated or tough it's because it is boring.
6/ "Rugby is an inclusive sport that makes no distinction based upon geographic location, religion, colour or race"
In most of Scotland, England, Ireland and S.A. Rugby qualifies as either elitist or racist.
RFS - By your reasoning it's just a coincidence that only 4 of the squad came from non elitist backgrounds, rubbish.
The S.A. Players might well have been the best available but that's because of the colour of their skin in most cases.
I.P. - why ?
Jackart - "Teams want the best players. Habanna for example (not white: coloured) or Englands Raging bull captain Phil Vickery (Not Posh: a Cattle farmer from Cornwall)"
Yes teams want the best players. Phil Vickery isn't a raging bull he played like a drunken sumo wrestler and got hooked. I can't think of any other sport where someone like him would get a game.
"If the best 15 players are white, why should a Black man get in because of some ridiculous quota? Many of the "posh" lads in the England squad went to good schools on scholarships."
No problem with the best fifteen, the problem is that they are possibly the best because of their colour.
The England team still come from the elite background described which means that maybe they are not the best available.
I.P. - LoL - "I'm afraid that the inverted snob tag fits you all too well Terry. Denial won't make it any less becoming." Wrong my attitude to rugby is one of bemused tolerance but I'm not about to let people tell me that it is something that it clearly isn't, like skilful. I have seven brothers and not one of us ever played rugby or had the opportunity, not one of us ever knew anyone who did, so how can I be an inverted snob ? It was a closed world to us.
"We don't think like that in the SNP. We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns." No way are you a jock tamson's bairn and neither are the rest of Scots. If they were we wouldn't have racism and sectarianism would we ?
A Laird maybe ? A Heilan duke fallen on hard times ?
So just because you have no direct experience you think somehow that makes you qualified to comment?
Also, I did not have the chance to play rugby at school but what I did was I went out and found a club and started to learn the sport. I hardly think laziness is an excuse here, after all you were described today as a hard-working local councillor.
I have seven brothers and not one of us ever played rugby
Ignorance won't stop you waxing lyrical on a subject though.
or had the opportunity,
Therefore you'd deny that opportunity to today's children...
(I'm referring to your point that investing in the facilities and coaches would be a waste of time).
not one of us ever knew anyone who did,
You really do have small horizons don't you.
so how can I be an inverted snob ?
It's your prejudice against those who you consider to have come from a 'privileged' background that gets you the 'inverted snob' label.
It was a closed world to us.
Take a trip down to your local rugby club some Sunday afternoon
and see how open a world it really is.
No way are you a jock tamson's bairn and neither are the rest of Scots.
ROFLMFAO ;-)
I can't take too much of you, but you're one of the funnier things on the web.
A Laird maybe ? A Heilan duke fallen on hard times ?
Where you going with this one?
Check the calendar Terry, it's the 21st Century and the SNP are running the show. That means that the majority of people living in Scotland are well inclined towards them, not the small clique of be-kilted teuchters that your narrow mind has caricatured the SNP support as.
***1/ lots of blacks were cheering on the team, some of the players are there because the blacks don't get the same opportunities, try tackling that.***
If I could unravel the point you are trying to make I would.
***Now you are just making things up, Blair has nothing to do with this, where did I say that anyone was to be despised ?***
No Terry I am not making up anything; even a one-eyed cupboard dweller could not have missed the stushie when it was revealed thet Blair sent his kids to private school, ergo by your own argument, they are from a privileged background. And by your own statements you shown you despise people of privileged backgrounds
***Well ! The SNP is a broad church indeed. Are you a Laird or what ?***
If you must self-medicate, please read the label first and do not try to operate complicated equipment like computers.
And you haven't answered the point Terry - is it only posh and privileged people who teach good behaviour, morals and social responsibility to their children?
***Rugby is! intimidating, not because of skill, or being complicated or tough it's because it is boring.***
Rugby is intimidating because it is boring? Mmmm, I refer you to my earlier response re: self-medication.
***In most of Scotland, England, Ireland and S.A. Rugby qualifies as either elitist or racist.***
Wrong. It is perceived as such. Rugby clubs up and down the country receive lottery funding, Sportsmatch, etc? To receive funding of this nature, or indeed local government funding any applying organisation MUST prove inclusivity amongst other criteria. If these clubs "qualified" as elitist or especially as racist they would not receive a penny from anyone.
***Players who turned out for S.A. On Sat. night were there because they are white ***
Bryan Habana? JP Pieterson?
***RFS - Prepare yourself for a shock, I didn't really mean I could play today, I didn't mean it literally ! oops.***
That you backing out?
RFS - "So just because you have no direct experience you think somehow that makes you qualified to comment?" Absolutely - I never had the chance to play rugby and never wanted to, I don't doubt that some people enjoy playing and watching it but IMO it falls a long way short of football which is the greatest team game ever created.
"I hardly think laziness is an excuse here, after all you were described today as a hard-working local councillor." What laziness ? I played football until I was about 30 yrs old and quit because I needed an operation on my knee to carry on and I decided that I probably wasn't going to make the grade by then, it was just a feeling I had.
"after all you were described today as a hard-working local councillor." I don't need to hear that from you, the voters tell me that every time I stand.
I never had the chance to play rugby and never wanted to
You're getting there Terry.
Let me help you.
I suggest:
You never took the chance to play rugby because you didn't want to.
There's no crime there, chief.
Shame that a person who may have some influence over the allocation of sports funding feels it's appropriate to state that investment in coaches and facilities for a game he doesn't fancy isn't worth the expenditure.
Just think of all those poor working class lads who didn't have the skill to play football as well as you Tel. You'd deny them the opportunity to play a different game that may be more suitable to their own talents... just to satisfy your own wee prejudices. Shame councillor! Shame!
I haven't played tennis, golf, cricket, horse jumping, hockey, ice hockey, polo, water polo, shinty, etc. Etc. so I better not mention them either then right ?
"Therefore you'd deny that opportunity to today's children..." Rugby has found its level in this country no-one would be stupid enough to invest in it, the fact is it can't compete with football. Some schools, some teams, one or two professionals ?
"not one of us ever knew anyone who did,
You really do have small horizons don't you."
I was raised on a housing estate of approx. 15,000 people there were perhaps 4/5 similar estates around paisley at that time and none of us knew anything about rugby, so there were a lot of us with small horizons then, 'broaden your horizons, play rugby' ! Get a grip.
"It's your prejudice against those who you consider to have come from a 'privileged' background that gets you the 'inverted snob' label"
Nonsense, what I object to is people playing international sports and claiming to represent a country where the overwhelming majority of the population have never played that sport and have never had the chance to play it, it's a dishonest farce.
" No way are you a jock tamson's bairn and neither are the rest of Scots." I asked you an important question here and you ducked it, typical SNP - if, as you say, we are all 'jock tamson's bairns' why are we plagued by racism, sectarianism and elitism ? Would you like to come down from 'Brigadoon' and try again ?
"the SNP are running the show. That means that the majority of people living in Scotland are well inclined towards them,"
Have you any regard for truth ? If the majority of people in Scotland are well inclined to the SNP why are they a MINORITY Govt. ? Try that one too.
I asked you an important question here and you ducked it, typical SNP -
LOL! Playground matter now... typical Labour na na na na na!
if, as you say, we are all 'jock tamson's bairns' why are we plagued by racism, sectarianism and elitism ?
LOL...
Jock Tamson's bairns is a turn of phrase which suggests, under the skin, we're all the same.
Are you saying we're not?
A man's a man for a' that, after all.
Would you like to come down from 'Brigadoon' and try again ?
Brigadoon now... where to next Terry?
I've been a laird, A Hielan duke fallen on hard times, the upper classes of the SNP and now from a fictional village, based on a German fairy tale.
Have you any regard for truth ? If the majority of people in Scotland are well inclined to the SNP why are they a MINORITY Govt. ?
Try that one too.
I'll give it a bash:
Because more people voted for SNP than any other single party and your lot couldn't get it together with the Lib Dems... reading your own comments on Sir Ming, little wonder really... they're running the show and the lack of protestors on the streets indicate that most people are happy with that.
How's that?
P.A. - "***In most of Scotland, England, Ireland and S.A. Rugby qualifies as either elitist or racist.***"
Disingenuous - deliberately so I suspect - for the sake of accuracy then, S.A. Rugby is racist. Scottish rugby is elitist at top level like Sat. Night's English team. Is that clear enough ?
"***Players who turned out for S.A. On Sat. night were there because they are white ***
Bryan Habana? JP Pieterson?"
Again disingenuous, if you are sure of your argument why do you have to lie ? If 99% of top class S.A. rugby players come from the white population which is approx. 4.5 million while the other 1% comes from the black population which is approx. 19 million I think it's reasonable to speculate that something is far wrong and that the white players who played are the best because the black players are excluded.
"That you backing out?" Yes, there's not much gets past you is there ? It was meant to illustrate my opinion of the standards of fitness which are evident on rugby pitches around these parts.
The rest of you comments are worthless, please be briefer.
Rugby has found its level in this country no-one would be stupid enough to invest in it
You know, I've always wondered if your big fan, RightForScotland, was being a bit precious about Renfrewshire council denying Paisley rugby club's proposals for the development of Pennilee... it seems not.
I.P. - "Shame that a person who may have some influence over the allocation of sports funding feels it's appropriate to state that investment in coaches and facilities for a game he doesn't fancy isn't worth the expenditure."
Any councillor with responsibilities for spending money is obliged to spend it prudently, which is what I do, I look at each case on it's merits and make an honest decision. If someone put in an application for rugby facilities in my ward I would consider it, after coming round from fainting.
Those working lads were never aware of rugby it just didn't matter and still doesn't that's not my fault it's just a fact.
If favouring football over rugby is prejudiced then I'm guilty but your problem is surely that I'm very very far from being alone right ! Do you do as much whinging as this on the pitch ?
I.P. - "Jock Tamson's bairns is a turn of phrase which suggests, under the skin, we're all the same.
Are you saying we're not?"
Poor answer in fact you are not being truthful - the phrase means not that we are all equal under the skin but, that Scots treat each other equally and are more decent than others which pathetic nationalists cling to, 'whas like us' type of thing, pathetic..
Why are we plagued by racism, elitism and sectarianism if Scots are so nice ? Try again.
"they're running the show and the lack of protesters on the streets indicate that most people are happy with that."
'Lack of protesters on the street' priceless, if the MAJORITY of people in Scotland are well inclined to the SNP, why are they a MINORITY govt.? Want to try again ? be briefer.
I.P. - You've got me, once I found out RFS's views I stopped his club's proposals for Penilee right away.
I then returned to my yacht in the Bahamas which I bought through political corruption.
If favouring football over rugby is prejudiced then I'm guilty but your problem is surely that I'm very very far from being alone right !
My problem is that you think spending money on rugby facilities is a waste of money through your own ignorant prejudice.
Those working lads were never aware of rugby it just didn't matter and still doesn't that's not my fault it's just a fact.
Ah, the 0ld Labourite in you rears his ugly head. Rugby just doesn't matter to these lads. The state knows best and as Uncle Terry is in charge of the purse strings, they can have football or nothing... it's what you had in your day and done you no harm, right?
I see I've descended from the upper echelons of the SNP down through my Highland estates to the lowly position of whinger now... what a journey! Riches to rags indeed!
***Any councillor with responsibilities for spending money is obliged to spend it prudently, which is what I do, I look at each case on it's merits and make an honest decision.***
So how does that lie with a "No Compulsory Redundancies Policy"? Obviously each case is not being looked at "on it's merits" if you had that policy in place.
Anyway be brief you said so I will:
Answer the damned question:
In response to my statement about rugby fans not being prone to vandalism or violence against officials you said
***They don't throw coins or tear up seating because they are too well bred to behave like that, that's what you mean right ?***
And I ask you again are you claiming that parents who are not from what you would class as "posh" or "privileged" backgrounds do not, will not or cannot teach good behaviour, morals and social responsibility to their children?
if the MAJORITY of people in Scotland are well inclined to the SNP, why are they a MINORITY govt.? Want to try again ? be briefer.
I'm tempted to quote you on this...
"The point is already covered."
But for your benefit
"More people voted for SNP than any other party, and Labour couldn't pull together an alliance to deny the winners of the election the right to rule."
Still, let's look at some opinion polls, to gauge how Scotland is reacting to SNP rule.
http://www.scottishpolitics.org/polls/2007polls.html
Ooops! Terry, SNP seem to be MORE popular than they were before...
Poor answer in fact you are not being truthful - the phrase means not that we are all equal under the skin but, that Scots treat each other equally and are more decent than others which pathetic nationalists cling to, 'whas like us' type of thing, pathetic..
Funny, every single person (12) in my office responded that they thought it meant all men were equal... hardly a yougov poll finding I realise, but you probably don't think much of those nowadays either..
Yes, IP does whine like that on the pitch.
But in comparing the state of rugby now with football now is apples and pears. Rugby has only been pro for a little over a decade. In that time they have built first class leagues in england and france, massive investment in the southern teams and leagues and pumped money into developing rugby nations as witnessed by the world cup group stages.
You are getting really bitter about this now Terry but even by your standards claiming that you don't represent your country unless it is in football (a minority sport in Austrailia and New Zealand) is just a tad bigoted.
You are on something of a horns of a dilemma here Tel.
First you tel us Rugby is elitist. It may interest you to know that Brian Habana may have his place in the SA side because of his "elitist" parents who were fortunate enough to have the money to send him to King Edwards VII school in Johannesburg.
Perhaps you should write Brian's dad a letter castigating him for exploiting an education system from the sweat of his own black employees.
Then you castigate the SA Minister of Sport for implementing a policy of positive discrimination and forcing the SA rugby team to pick black players.
So where do you stand on this issue? Should the SA rugby team have black players at the expense of other better players thus ensuring that SA never win the Rugby World Cup again, or should they continue to pick players on merit thus ensuring a fair contest on the field of play?
Never mind Tel, if the Minister for Sport has his way at least Scottish rugby may be assured of some success.
***Why are we plagued by racism, elitism and sectarianism if Scots are so nice ? ***
Take a look at your beautiful game Terry. If fitba is so inclusive why are there pubs in Glasgow where you take your life in your hands if you walk in wearing the wrong football strip. The clubs themselves may be trying to stamp it out but sectarianism is still rife among football fans. Try walking into the Glasgwegian bar wearing a Celtic top or into Bairds wearing a Rangers top.
It is helped little when the Celtic goalkeeper publicly refers to Rangers as "the enemy"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/7057835.stm
With this as an example, from someone who beyond his employer has no ties to either side of the sectarian divide in Scotland, it is little wonder that school children still try to beat each other up because of the colour of their football tops or that their parents feel validated in perpetuating the bile.
I.P. - we've done this.
PA - we've covered all this.
I'm saying that you are implying that rugby people are better bred.
IP - you can repeat yourself as often as you like but I've covered this.
IP - Jock Tamson's bairns ? I know what what it means all right ' we Scots are better than others' we obviously move in different circles.
RFS - Claiming that you don't represent your country unless it's football would be bigoted, if I had said it.
Henry, welcome back, have you licked your wounds ?
I know about Habana - get it right Henry in the British Isles (ex Wales) it's elitist in S.A. It's racist.
"So where do you stand on this issue?" I stand behind a ban on S.A. Rugby until they put their house in order.
Picking players on skin colour is wrong - not allowing players to compete because of colour is worse.
You still stink of Apartheid Henry.
PA - Why is Scotland plagued by Sectarianism, racism and elitism ? Was that an answer ?
Why can Celtic's goalkeeper cross himself in every country in the world except Scotland ?
I take it that 'parents perpetuating the bile' is a ref. to Catholic Schools, if so the Goalkeeper question applies why are Catholic Schools only a problem in Scotland ?
Try honesty this time, even if it reflects badly on Scotland, we won't sort it with lies.
***I take it that 'parents perpetuating the bile' is a ref. to Catholic Schools,***
Where on earth did that come from? You really must stop trying to put your world view into other peoples mouths Terry, it's not very polite.
"Parents perpetuating the bile" is a reference to parents from both sides of the divide bringing their children up to believe it is okay to hate someone because they attend a different house of worship on a Sunday.
***Why can Celtic's goalkeeper cross himself in every country in the world except Scotland ?***
Because Scotland is cursed with a bigotry which has been historically perpetuated by both "Auld Firm" clubs and their supporters.
***why are Catholic Schools only a problem in Scotland ?***
Because only in Scotland (as far as I am aware) are they funded exclusively by the state and other religious groups must "go private" if they wish a non-secular education for their children. True there are "state" Catholic Schools in England, but these are funded at least in part by the local diocese.
I seem to recall rugby being played at my perfectly ordinary state school, the only bar to participation that I recall was gender which suited me fine. Bloody P.E was bad enough without forcing us all to charge at each other. I'm no expert but I can't see why rugby should cost anymore to put on at schools than say, football. If it isn't being played then surely that is as a result of a decision made by the relevant schools and could be easily rectified with a bit of parental pressure or even the intervention of a local councillor.
"Nonsense, what I object to is people playing international sports and claiming to represent a country where the overwhelming majority of the population have never played that sport "
That is what you said, so you are bigoted then. Or are we going down the cowards route again where you say "yes, but I did not say those exact words so therefor it does not count"?
Admit it terry, this whole thread is about how football is more popular than rugby then you come out with this statement, you are saying that people should not claim to represent their country unless they play football.
Anyone in first year English can point that out to you and claiming otherwise, especially when the US consulate is reading, is just a bit silly.
Henry in the British Isles (ex Wales) it's elitist in S.A. It's racist.
How is it an elitist sport in the British Isles? You can't simply repeat these untruths in the hope that people will believe you.
Simply turn up at your local rugby club on a Sunday afternoon and see the fantastic efforts of the parents and club volunteers who make it possible for kids from all backgrounds to get the opportunity to chase the egg.
It may well be less popular in West of Scotland than football, that doesn't make it elitist. Take a look at the Scottish schools cup draw for confirmation of how inclusive the game is - outwith the ~60000 people that you personally knew as a youth who were denied the opportunity to get involved obviously...
IP - Jock Tamson's bairns ? I know what what it means all right ' we Scots are better than others' we obviously move in different circles.
Terry, you can be certain that we move in different circles, however just for a laugh why don't you try typing something like
"What does Jock Tamson's bairns mean" into a search engine like www.google.com ?
PS
How do you describe someone who refuses to entertain the possibility that he might just be wrong?
PPS Maybe you could ask Dougie Alexander... just a thought...
PA - judging by this comment I didn't get it far wrong did I ?
"Because Scotland is cursed with a bigotry which has been historically perpetuated by both "Auld Firm" clubs and their supporters."
You are a bigot aren't you, why does this bigotry exist in every part of Scotland if it's only the old firm.
"***why are Catholic Schools only a problem in Scotland ?***
Because only in Scotland (as far as I am aware) are they funded exclusively by the state"
So the Catholic School problem is down to money then, sectarianism has nothing to do with it. I assume that you are not completely stupid which means you are a sectarian bigot, no wonder you're hiding.
Justine - I believe that there are some schools where rugby is played but it wasn't in my day.
"I can't see why rugby should cost anymore to put on at schools than say, football."
The cost is only part of the problem, who would want to play ? Would you force them ?
"If it isn't being played then surely that is as a result of a decision made by the relevant schools and could be easily rectified with a bit of parental pressure or even the intervention of a local councillor"
You want parents to pressurise kids into playing rugby ? What would you do with parents like me who think it's boring and elitist, force me ?
Do you think a local councillor can intervene in the school curriculum ? That's interesting but, a wee bit out of touch.
***judging by this comment I didn't get it far wrong did I ?***
Didn't get what far wrong Terry? Simple sentence construction consists of Object, Subject, Action, you should work on that.
***You are a bigot aren't you***
No.
***why does this bigotry exist in every part of Scotland if it's only the old firm***
Another simple English lesson is in order one feels.
The word "historically" means:
1. of, pertaining to, treating, or characteristic of history or past events (dictionary.com).
The word "perpetuated" means:
1. to make perpetual.
2. to preserve from extinction or oblivion: to perpetuate one's name.
Synonyms 2. save, maintain, sustain.
(to avoid any confusion a synonym is a word whhich is the same or similar in meaning) (again dictionary.com)
When we put these two words together in the sentence "historically perpetuated by both "Auld Firm" clubs and their supporters." using the definitions as outlined above, the sentence can be deconstructed to a simpler level as reading:
"it is characteristic of past events that both Rangers and Celtic clubs and players have sought to maintain the bigotry which exists in Scotland"
As you can see, bigotry does not exist solely within those two institutions, but rather those two institutions have over the years added fuel to the fire to keep it burning.
***So the Catholic School problem is down to money then, sectarianism has nothing to do with it.***
Not at all. Sectarianism has everything to do with it. Some people merely believe it is incorrect for the state to fund one particular form of non-secular education to the exclusion of other religions. By doing so, some people believe, that the state is exercising it's own form of sectarianism and (that word again) perpetuating religious intolerance.
*** I assume that you are not completely stupid which means you are a sectarian bigot, no wonder you're hiding.***
I'm not hiding anywhere Terry. And insults do nothing but belittle us all.
***You want parents to pressurise kids into playing rugby ? ***
My father was a time-served Electrician. My mother an auxilliary nurse in a hospital. I went to Linwood High School.
Hardly a model of an upperclass elitist upbringing.
From I was five years old and saw my first game of amateur rugby on TV I have prefered rugby union to soccer. I believed union held more of a spectacle (from the word spectate).
Now neither my primary school nor my high school offered rugby. Presumably none of the PE teachers were comfortable or knowledgable enough with the sport to teach it and I will accede to probably being in a minority in prefering it over soccer.
However, my school did play soccer and I was "pressurised" into playing a game I had no interest in.
What's the difference Terry?
Why was I not given the option of sitting out the soccer sessions as other students were allowed to sit out of athletics, gymnastics, basketball?
Where was my choice?
RFS - The Scottish rugby team are not representative, neither are the English or the S.A.s
I believe that some sports and I don't mean rugby are so exclusive that calling some of their players internationals is a farce.
Rugby should clean out the snobbery which exists if they want to be truly representative of their country.
How about sailing, archery, horse jumping, curling, there are too many to mention.
IP - "How is it an elitist sport in the British Isles?" Because the international teams from Scotland, England, and Ireland are dominated by an elite from privileged backgrounds. It was ever thus.
IP - Nothing new here.
PA - Nothing fresh here but did you just say "I'm not hiding anywhere Terry. And insults do nothing but belittle us all." Wow insults ! And a Guy called 'political atheist' who doesn't hide.
PA - You are heroic, still played on after all that.
You don't have to apologise for playing or preferring rugby, and you shouldn't let it make you feel so insecure, it's only a game.
***And a Guy called 'political atheist' who doesn't hide.***
I call myslef political atheist because that's what I am.
As for who I am, well you already know that Terry.
Have a look here. I start off using the name Mutt ('tis my nickname) and revert to my real name as you yet again bleat about people "hiding" behind usernames whilst you yourself hide behind the very worst bluster, rhetoric and obfuscation
PA - you're a big fearty aren't you ? 'Bluster, Rhetoric and Obfuscation' what a talent.
Just tell us who you are, are you someone important ? I can't wait to find out, don't back out.
***PA - you're a big fearty aren't you ?***
hahahahahahahaha
***Just tell us who you are,***
I've already told you who I am Terry, all you need to do is actually read the coments on your own blog.
*** are you someone important ?***
You're damn tooting right I'm someone important. I'm an unaffiliated member of the electorate!
***don't back out***
Back out of what Terry? I've given you all the information you have asked for I just refuse to spoonfeed you.
I would have thought that as a councillor you would be looking to encourage all sports in an attempt to improve the health of the nation & indeed in your area. Whether you like the game or not is frankly irrelevant. Rugby provides many skills that are also a lesson for life. Football is now considering implementing several ideas taken from rugby ie. no dissent to the ref, videa evidence etc. As an aside it might be a good idea to sort out problems that fall under your remit rather than wasting your time with things in South Africa that you can & should have no influence over.
PA - I'm always intrigued by someone who comes on shooting from the hip, someone really angry who doesn't want to reveal their identity - it's cowardice.
this is mad.
i am from a state school in england, i have played rugby since i was 10(12 years now). rugby is not elitist, it used to be. since turning pro it has attracted more following so can not be called elitist. could it be that the best players are good academically as well as physically allowing them to go to better universities?
also it angers me that as you do not understand my sport you say it is boring and needs few skills. to play rugby well needs a huge amount of skills. not necessarily more than other sports but i find it fascinating. SA rugby must do more to introduce black players to the game, but this takes time. i hink you need to try to understand the game and its fans before berating them.
Also you cant make sweeping statements about elitist Rugby in the British Isles and then exclude Wales. its like saying i will have a sandwich, but i dont want any bread.
idiot!
***I'm always intrigued by someone who comes on shooting from the hip***
Thats a very 'Murkan image is it not?
***someone really angry***
I'm not angry in the slightest. Merely taking you to task over some of the more offensive comments you seem prone to making and pointing out to you where you logic and arguments are fallacious.
***who doesn't want to reveal their identity***
Okay Terry, read very slowly.
I. Have. Already. Revealed. My. Identity. In. Previous. Posts.
"Have a look here."
Are you the only person reading your blog who did not follow that link if only to ensure I was "making stuff up"?
***it's cowardice.***
Opinions, Terry, are like sphincters.
I'm from south of the border (saw the link to the blog on the BBC forums) I just felt that I had to comment.
The councillor is saying that rugby is elitist - but he opposes any move to make it available to more people in state schools theyby stopping it being 'elitist'.
The only reason i can see that he would oppose this is he doesnt like the game and dosent think that it is as good as football.
Is this not hypocritical and a form of elitism in itself?
I would say more about the 'racism' in the SA RFU but i get the feeling that the councillor dosent listen to any views that go against his own and i dont want to waste too much of my time.
Anon - the rugby officials are looking at ways to change the rules to make it more exciting, that's how bad the world cup was.
I'm not wasting my time on S.A. When I'm annoying apologists for Apartheid, you might be the type to turn your back on injustice but I'm not.
the rugby officials are looking at ways to change the rules to make it more exciting, that's how bad the world cup was.
The IRB are constantly looking at the laws of the game.
This is no different to FIFA, when they're not lining their pockets... crikey, there's a body if ever there was in need of a decent clean out of corruption.
examples:
Remember when the offside law was changed in football to being in line with the last man?
When a player could be offside, whether or not he was deemed to be interfering with play?
The introduction of referee's communications systems?
The unsuccessful Golden goal experiment.
The proposals for use of goal-line technology?
The experiments with artificial surfaces?
"could it be that the best players are good academically as well as physically allowing them to go to better universities?"
Of course it could and I'm due a visit from the tooth fairy.
S.A. Rugby deliberately prevent blacks from reaching the top and you are an apologist for racism.
The rugby rulers are looking rule changes because it's so dire, Idiot.
PA - same stuff as before - why won't you tell us who you are ?what are you afraid of.
Cearon - Yet another comment from someone who doesn't give his name, you rugby guys are really brave aren't you.
All this has been said already.
Of course it could and I'm due a visit from the tooth fairy.
Too many sweets?
You should really consider cutting them out of your diet when you're so overweight and suffering diabetes.
Cearon - Yet another comment from someone who doesn't give his name,
His name's Cearon.
you rugby guys are really brave aren't you.
????
IP - The rugby officials agree with me it's dire and the world cup was a disaster for the sport.
IP 'sweets' are you attempting humour here ?
You thought I was serious about playing rugby and now you're telling the jokes !
IP - And your name's incorrigible plagiarist right ?
What are you all afraid of ?
IP - And your name's incorrigible plagiarist right ?
eh, no. It's an internet alias I use.
What are you all afraid of ?
Lying politician's dragging us into an unwarranted war.
Global terrorism increasing as a result of aforesaid lying Politician.
Not that fond of snakes either.
"the rugby officials are looking at ways to change the rules to make it more exciting, that's how bad the world cup was."
That is how little you understand the politics of rugby.
The aussies and ABs are looking at ways of making union more like league because for the xth time they have been unable to win. They do this every time. Last time it was just to devalue the drop goal that Wilko relied on, this time it is to "encourage" more tries (i.e. soften up defenses). They also want less teams in the competition because they think it should all be about the spectacle from down under.
And like every time it will be rejected because this was actually the best world cup thanks to the lesser nations really stepping up and giving a few folks a bloody nose. Not that you would know because like you have said in previous posts you did not actually watch any of the world cup.
I want to go back a bit in this conversation now Terry, if I may. I will go slowly so those who have to use a finger on the monitor to read can keep up.
I said:
"And more importantly when was the last time you heard of a rugby referee being hit with coins? Or rugby fans tearing up seating because their team didn't get a penalty."
You replied:
"They don't throw coins or tear up seating because they are too well bred to behave like that, that's what you mean right ?"
Answering a question with a question is a poor evasive tactic.
So I will answer your question first.
My parents brought me up to know right from wrong; "behave or the polis'l com fur ye". Like any sane person I have an aversion to the notion of incarceration, in fact I'm terrified of the prospect of jail. So I stay on the right side of the law, I "behave" myself. If I know something is wrong or illegal I don't do it. So, yes I am too well bred to behave like that and so are all the rugby fans I know.
So you answer my question now:
If you can have unsegregated crowds at rugby matches which you claim are upper class, elitist and racist (Don't, I'm paraphrasing for the sake of expedience) with no trouble, why is that we must segregate crowds at "working class", "egalitarian" soccer matches to prevent trouble breaking out? Why do soccer fans rip up chairs, throw coins at referees and arrange pithced battles with opposition fans?
Are you saying that, for some reason, working class soccer supporting parents cannot or will not teach their children right from wrong along with simple morals and ethics?
Because if you are I will have to break my Labour-voting mothers heart and tell her she's not working class because she brought me up properly!
IP - No name then ? big teartie.
PA - You will hopefully get round to telling what this is about.
"If you can have unsegregated crowds at rugby matches which you claim are upper class,"
If you really want to be serious then it's better not to start by lying, I have never said this.
"Are you saying that, for some reason, working class soccer supporting parents cannot or will not teach their children right from wrong along with simple morals and ethics?"
I really do not know what you are on about here.
"So, yes I am too well bred to behave like that and so are all the rugby fans I know."
I did accuse you of elitism didn't I.
The most thuggish behaviour I have seen in any sporting event has been witnessed in rugby matches, the worst behaviour I have ever witnessed by sportsmen anywhere has been by rugby players.
One of the things which certainly makes them different is that they get away with it, why is that I wonder, what would have happened to an international football team who behaved like England after the rugby world cup, led of course by the 'Royal Fools' Wills and Harry ? Now they are well bred right ? that's why they hang out with rugby people and not Fitba people.
Have you not had enough yet ? I'm bored.
***If you really want to be serious then it's better not to start by lying, I have never said this.***
I DID say I was paraphrasing didn't I?
Anyway pressing on....
***I really do not know what you are on about here.***
Terribly sorry about that, I went slowly as well. Then again, great to avoid answering a question. Jusrt pretend you don't understand it - worked for Clinton didn't it?
***The most thuggish behaviour I have seen in any sporting event has been witnessed in rugby matches, the worst behaviour I have ever witnessed by sportsmen anywhere has been by rugby players.***
Um, this particualr discussion, which you claim not to understand was in relation to spectators not participants
***I wonder, what would have happened to an international football team who behaved like England after the rugby world cup,***
What exactly did they do? Did they, shock horror go out and enjoy themselves getting royally (geddit?) drunk and enjoying themselves, albeit in perhaps an overly (for some) boisterous manner.
Tell me Terry, when was the last time a well-known rugby player was sued for paternity, when was the last time a famous rugby player (or players were) accused of gang rape or sexual assault?
Apart from dopehead Dallaglio, when wqas the last time a famous rugby player was "taken in for questioning" by the police on drug-related matters?
Now ask those same questions about famous soccerati then compare the answers.
It's okay, we can wait - go do some research before you answer this one.
And if you are so anxious to "expose" my secret identity?
Take a look at my profile.....
PA - "Um, this particular discussion, which you claim not to understand was in relation to spectators not participants"
Well thank goodness that's sorted then.
"Tell me Terry, when was the last time a well-known rugby player was sued for paternity, when was the last time a famous rugby player (or players were) accused of gang rape or sexual assault?"
Football is highly payed, skilful, glamorous, followed by millions, the most popular game on the planet etc. Etc. Why would the news hounds want to look at rugby players lives ? Still that we Walter Carling got over the palace fence didn't he that was news I'll grant you. Royals n rugby eh !
"the 'Royal Fools' Wills and Harry ? Now they are well bred right ? that's why they hang out with rugby people and not Fitba people."
Aaah the prejudices start to come out of the woodwork that masquerades for a brain.
You do know that Prince William is President of The Football Association and a fan of Aston Villa?
***Still that we Walter Carling got over the palace fence***
Who is Walter Carling?
'You want parents to pressurise kids into playing rugby ? What would you do with parents like me who think it's boring and elitist, force me ?'
I wasn't suggesting forcing anyone to do anything. I just don't see why working class children should be denied opportunities because of a perception that a particular activity is 'too posh'. You seemed to be complaining that rugby is elitist, I cannot see any means of changing that without offering the opportunity to play to all classes.
I must say I'm surprised that a self-proclaimed socialist would see anything wrong with that.
Why do you say that you are against all discrimination and yet state, in your original blog, that all players over 25 stone should be banned from playing? That, my tubby little weasel, is discriminatory.
P.S. I come from a single parent family, and was brought up on a council estate, and yet I played good Rugby Union at a very good club. You've a head full of magic, Pal!
Henry Crun - These people, the Royals, are presidents, colonels, field marshals, honourary leaders etc. of just about every organisation known to man.
It's because he ( they ) are so talented and clever.
PA - Rugby player and Di's ex.
Justine - I didn't say rugby was 'too posh ' I said it was elitist at international level in the British Isles (ex Wales) and racist in S.A. how many times do I have to say it ? As a 'self proclaimed Socialist' I have no problem with anyone playing rugby.
Ah!
You mean WILL Carling, ex Harlequin and England Skipper?
The chap who referred to the RFU's 57 old farts?
Yup, we'll give you him, he is toffee-nosed git - well done you managed to identify one (ex) player from a privileged background.
*Obviously* they're ALL THE SAME!
Anon - "I come from a single parent family, and was brought up on a council estate," Luxury lad, Bloody Luxury.
PA - I didn't say they were all the same but, 18 out of 22 of the England world cup pool came from a similar background to Carling.
Kelly the muppet - "I come from a single parent family, and was brought up on a council estate,"
Quit the lies Kelly, you were found growing in a cabbage patch at the bottom of some Paisley Buddies garden.
anon - ? clueless.
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