Friday, October 05, 2007

CHE !

The above title is only three letters but there is not a corner of the world where they need an explanation, what is the most famous / popular image of the twentieth century ? Hitler, Marilyn, the Queen, JFK, Lenin, Stalin, Ali, or is it this guy ? he certainly has a claim and now 40 yrs. since the pictures of the open eyed corpse were put on show in Vallegrande Bolivia the town has been turned into a place of religious pilgrimage.

Local Bolivians ( devout catholics) pray to 'Saint Ernesto' and claim that he has interceded with 'the chief' to bring them comfort and help, he is right up there with Jesus, Mary, the Pope and the latest thorn in America's side Evo Morales ( power to him )
In Seville at the university some years ago I saw a student carrying a book with a large picture of Che on the cover and I said to her "ah ! Che Guevara" and I was made welcome by the students immediately, not a bad legacy, one of the greats of history.

Fast forward 40 yrs. and, Cubans are back in Bolivia as guests, they are doctors who are working with the Bolivian poor, one of the operations which is commonplace is the restoration of sight by removing cataracts. One old man had this operation and spoke of his delight at being able to see the mountains and flowers again along with his grandchildren.

40 Yrs. ago that old man was a young army sergeant trained by the CIA when he was about to execute a man the victim said to him "calm down and point well you are about to kill a man" the speaker was Che Guevara and the young sergeant was Mario Teran who was the old man who had his sight restored by Cuban doctors.

A victory for Che, for Cuba and, for Socialism.

120 comments:

Anonymous said...

Terry,

It's me again. I fully respect your right to hold your communist beliefs, and even acknowledge that you might be right (that wierd and bizzarre point I was trying to make before). But nobody has the right to enforce their views using extreme violence and murdering their political opponents. He may have been no worse than many of his opponents, but that does not excuse the fact that he personally murdered tens of people, and was indirectly responsible for the murder of hundreds more.

He was also a strong supporter and advocate of Castro's anti-homosexual policies, and was reportedly involved in the arrest and detention of Gay cubans in interment camps.

David Duff said...

"Che?"

I thought it was what that Spanish waiter from 'Fawlty Towers' kept asking.

Henry Crun said...

"In Seville at the university some years ago I saw a student carrying a book with a large picture of Che on the cover and I said to her "ah ! Che Guevara" and I was made welcome by the students immediately, not a bad legacy, one of the greats of history."

Are you sure? I've seen your picture. If I was a young, female Spanish student approached by a bloated, drunken Scot, I'd call the Police.

Angry Steve said...

I like the way neither the BBC article about this, or your post mentions the people Guevara murdered.

“Tengo una remera del Che y no sé por qué,”

Byeck said...

"Cruel leaders are replaced, only to have new leaders turn cruel," Che Guevara.

Given that Che had helped overthrow Batista, would you say he was disillusioned with your man Fidel?

Shug Niggurath said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara
"José Vilasuso, an attorney who worked under Guevara at La Cabaña preparing indictments, said that these were lawless proceedings where "the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles" and the findings were pre-determined by Guevara. It is estimated that between 156 and 550 people were executed on Guevara's extra-judicial orders during this time."

Why no mention of him personally executing people without trial? Is that socialism in action? You can keep it if it is.

Che Guevara was not the hero that he's made out to be by many, and people like yourself, who surely have read the histories of these figures are either conveniently ignoring the less palatable aspects or actually support political murder.

Was Stalin a socialist hero too?

Anonymous said...

Mr Terry
check your spelling before the hounds pounce on you, site = sight

Rumbold said...

Terry:

"A victory for Che, for Cuba and, for Socialism."

Hardly; Morales was democratically elected. Don't socialists usually prefer to seize power, as they believe that the people do not know what they want (e.g. Castro).

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - Delighted to print what passes for debate from a S.A. racist.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Angry Steve - that's because the BBC are a communist organization.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

byeck - no. Typical of a practiced liar like you to try to twist his words.

Henry Crun said...

"Henry Crun - Delighted to print what passes for debate from a S.A. racist."

I'm equally delighted to engage in a battle of wits. Although I expect I would be up against an unarmed opponent.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Shug - There are clearly two versions of Che Guevara, I have mine and you have yours I can understand your frustration at his international popularity but sounding like a CIA puppet isn't a strong argument IMO.

Stalin ? I regard Stalin as more of a Churchillian type of guy, quite prepared to shoot down workers if they didn't do as he told them.

Guthrie said...

"There are clearly two versions of Che Guevara, I have mine and you have yours"

I'm pleased for you, Terry. Now, tell us - did your Che execute people?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - Rumbold - is that it ? Socialists prefer to seize power and the Cubans were happy under Batista and their benevolent friends from the CIA, what's happened to you ?

It's a great story and a triumph, eat your heart out.

Guthrie said...

"I saw a student carrying a book with a large picture of Che on the cover... and I was made welcome by the students immediately"

You'll be delighted to know that I've tracked down the book in question. Click here!

I'm sure the students appreciated the practical angle your brought to their studies.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

anon - spelling ? thank you for that but, since I pointed out to those who jump on this kind of thing that it weakens their argument, it's almost stopped, I will fix it though.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - Henry, Henry, the jokes please, who said S.A.s were humourless, were you a stand up comic back in God's country ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

"did your Che execute people?" I really don't know, I know that the CIA and right wing agencies all over the world have tried since those days to destroy his reputation but, maybe this will help.

If I had been a Cuban peasant with a gun and the courage to use it, I would have shot as many of the CIA/Batista Goons as I could, in quite moments I would have dug them up and shot them again.

Maybe that's why Che. and Fidel won, because there were a lot of just that kind of peasant ready to do just that and, I doubt if they thought it immoral to do so.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Guthrie - I'm delighted that this episode annoys you, anywhere in the world I can meet with workers and students and things like the image of Che. Guavara unites us, it's a great feeling.

You have no doubt felt that international bond of friendship, you of course would have to buy it.

Rumbold said...

Terry:

"Socialists prefer to seize power and the Cubans were happy under Batista and their benevolent friends from the CIA, what's happened to you ?

It's a great story and a triumph, eat your heart out."

Batista was a dictator and the CIA were wrong to back him. Castro is a dictator and you are wrong to back him. More people have voted for you than have voted for Castro- you have more legitimacy than him. If you call for democracy in Cuba, you are imprisoned. Do you think that is the civilised way to run a country? Is this what socialism is?

Byeck said...

Terry, now you've done it - my dander is all fired up. 'Twisting' Che's words indeed!

Still, I suppose Guevara is a natural fit to the rest of Kelly's Heroes - Stalin, Fidel, Honecker and any murdering African despot with his hands in the till.

Just a suggestion Terry, but if you added in the Yorkshire Ripper and the Glasgow/Omagh bombers, you'd have a full-house you could be proud of.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - I think we've been here before, "More people have voted for you than have voted for Castro- you have more legitimacy than him." Castro has been in power for approx 50 yrs with election turn outs of 95% Fidel and I are both legitimate.

Why would anyone want to call for your version of democracy when they have 95% turn outs ?

Rumbold said...

Terry:

"Why would anyone want to call for your version of democracy when they have 95% turn outs ?"

You just answered your own question. He is afraid to put his rule to the test in free and fair elections- sounds like another left-wing leader we know, eh?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

byeck - stylish debating, is there an argument in there somewhere ?

You missed out Jack the Ripper, Earl Hague and Churchill.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - IMO 95% turn outs knocks your version of democracy for six. I suppose you mean Brown ? The two most relieved men in the country right now are Cameron and Salmond and if you claim to know anything about politics you will know that.

Byeck said...

Re your "Is there an argument in there," reponse.

No Terry, there isn't an argument in there, because if you praise Guevara, you are either taking the mickey or you are overdue a visit from the men in white coats with restraints and strong medication.

Henry Crun said...

Che, Nelson, Fidel, Martin & Gerry. What lovely company you keep.

Although the difference is that (unlike you) they had the courage of their (misguided) convictions and put them into action (killing, bombing, maimimg all in the name of "freedom).

You, however chose to run for such high office. Tell me, what's it like being a big fish in oh so small a pond?

Henry Crun said...

"IMO 95% turn outs knocks your version of democracy for six."

Vote or we'll imprison you for crimes against the state.

No wonder the turnouts are so high in Cuba and other socialist paradises. Even Saddam was able to achieve 100% turnout and 100% return.

Rumbold said...

Terry:

You do know that the Cuban elections are rigged right? Why else would Castro send those who call for democracy to jail?

I have more respect for you than I do for Castro, because at least people voted you into office.

Rumbold said...

Terry:

Read this piece on Che by a left-winger:

http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1192

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Byeck) - consistent if nothing else, there isn't an argument in here either.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - So you aren't going to answer my point then ? This is a result of being a S.A. Supporter of Apartheid you come from a background where you could do what you liked and you think you still can.

I don't know about whether I would have the courage to do what Mandela and others have done but, I do know this, being a member of the S.A.D.F. takes no courage at all, firing guns and gas at people armed with sticks and stones might be your idea of a fair fight, it certainly sounds like it, but it's not mine.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - I have read this several times to satisfy myself that I have just read a S.A. Supporter of Apartheid criticise the behaviour of other states - have you no shame Henry ? Just how arrogant can you people be ?

Byeck said...

Terry
Just seen Guthrie's link on his 8th Oct 3.02pm post.

How did you let that one slip under the radar?

Henry Crun said...

"being a member of the S.A.D.F. takes no courage at all, firing guns and gas at people armed with sticks and stones"

Funny how a stick can suddenly metamorphose into an AK47. Still you continue to ignore the facts that the SADF did not shoot anyone in the townships unless fired upon first.

Seeing as I was the company medic I was only armed with a backpack of medical supplies.

And for the record, I'm as British as you are.

Henry Crun said...

"Just how arrogant can you people be ?"

Pot, kettle, black.

Or am I mistaking arrogance for stupidity?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - "Terry: You do know that the Cuban elections are rigged right? Why else would Castro send those who call for democracy to jail?" You ! know that I don't accept that so it's rather a waste of time.

Gadaffi, is quoted in the papers today explaining why Libyan democracy is so much better than ours, in fact he ridicules ours quite cleverly, I find that fascinating, not because I think that Libya is worse than us, but because I don't know.

Rumbold - different no longer means wrong we no longer have that empire which I think you miss so much.

C4' said...

"In Seville at the university some years ago I saw a student carrying a book with a large picture of Che on the cover and I said to her "ah ! Che Guevara" and I was made welcome by the students immediately, not a bad legacy, one of the greats of history."

Are you sure? I've seen your picture. If I was a young, female Spanish student approached by a bloated, drunken Scot, I'd call the Police.


This brings up an interesting point. Where have you hidden Madeline McCann's body Terry? We all know you went abroad over the summer.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - I've read about Che.

Anonymous said...

Terry, Henry Crun has repeatedly stated that he doesn't support Apartheid. You have crossed the line into blatant lying.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Anonymous - If you misunderstand or choose to misinterpret what I have said then you are not due any apology.

Perhaps as a council worker you would care to comment on the SNP's refusal to honour Labour's 27 year guarantee of 'no compulsory redundancies' perhaps you could find the courage to identify yourself so that your council colleagues could consider your opinion on this very serious piece of SNP treachery.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

byeck - I know he put in a link which I ignored as I always do.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - You might well be ashamed of your S.A. connections but this " I was only a medic" stuff is pathetic, you were a member of the S.A.D.F. and you are guilty as hell, you are a tainted man.
." Still you continue to ignore the facts that the SADF did not shoot anyone in the townships unless fired upon first." More shame Henry, I didn't mention whether they were shot at, you just have, have you suddenly seen the road to Damascus ? Are you now going to tell the truth ? That would be most un - S.A. like.

I've told you several times, I don't care about a persons race, creed or colour, you are obsessed by it, I wonder why ?

Rumbold said...

Terry:

"Gadaffi, is quoted in the papers today explaining why Libyan democracy is so much better than ours, in fact he ridicules ours quite cleverly, I find that fascinating, not because I think that Libya is worse than us, but because I don't know."

The mind boggles. Castro, Quadaffi, who else? What are your feelings about Mugabe and Kim Jong-il?

"Different no longer means wrong we no longer have that empire which I think you miss so much."

It does not necessary mean wrong, but there is not a moral equivilence between democracy and dictatorship, unless you are saying that Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander are no better than dictators?

I know this is difficult, but do you think that you can reply to one of Henry Crun's comments without pointing out that he is South African. Some people would consider the constant reminder to be xenophobic (just as if you had a South Asian poster on here and you referred to them as Indian every time you replied).

Guthrie said...

I'm spotting a theme here.

When asked whether "your Che" executed people, you say that you don't know.

When it comes to whether Libya is worse than us, you say that you don't know.

For someone who would have us believe he is an authority on so much, it seems that your knowledge conveniently falls short when it comes to the uncomfortable possibility of having to criticise one of your lovelies.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Anonymous - When Henry Crun talks about events in S. A. Under Apartheid he condemns Mandela and the NCA and doesn't mention the evils of the system.

He wrote to me originally in a racist poisonous way and as far as I'm concerned that is what he is.

Henry Crun said...

"He wrote to me originally in a racist poisonous way and as far as I'm concerned that is what he is."

Comments which you refuse to publish and allow others to make up their own minds as to why they are racist or not.

For the record, here are those comments:

I commented on the statue of Nelson Mandela that was recently unveiled in Westminster. It would seem that you like to venerate terrorists. Are you aware that

Nelson's first state visit was to Col. Ghaddafi in Libya and he made a speech prising the courage of Fidel Castro as a great liberationist(by their friends shall you know them).

Mandela not once condemned the violence and intimidation perpetrated by ANC thugs (for hey were no more than that) in the townships.

Mandela not once condemned the kangaroo courts, ANC street committees and the death by necklacing (once you've seen one you never forget) of those accused of being "police informers"

Mandela not once condemned the violence and intimidation perpetrated by the thugs known as Mandela FC who his former wife used as her "personal bodyguards" and were implcated in the death of 14 year old Stompe Seipei.

Or does that not fit in with your rose tinted view of Mandela.

Will we one day, see a statue of Osama bin Laden alongside that of St Nelson? He is a "freedom fighter" after all.

Please enlighten me where these comments are racist so that I may see the error of my ways.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - Gadaffi is our friend again, he was trained by the glorious British Army - I prefer to keep an open mind and I find it really quite silly to assume that we are always right, Mugabe I've written about but Kim Jong11 is also on the way to being our friend isn't he ?

I refer to Henry Crun as S. A. because it's a calculated insult, he is a racist ex member of the S.A.D.F. Under Apartheid and deserves no sympathy.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Guthrie - I know that the CIA portray Che. as a devil and you buy it, I know people who worked in Libya and they liked it and kept going back, we of course, Britain, trained Gadaffi.

I answered this by saying that given the right circumstances I would have done the same as Che.

Rumbold said...

Terry:

Leaving aside the question of whether or not Henry Crun is a nice person, why is calling him South African an insult?

Henry Crun said...

"More shame Henry, I didn't mention whether they were shot at,"

According to you the thugs in the townships were only armed with sticks. So unless they were running around shouting "bang!" they couldn't have been shooting anyone.

Unfortunately I witnessed what they used to do with those AK47s. Usually to their own people.

BTW, where do you think they got those AK47s from? I wonder if Fidel still has the receipt?

Byeck said...

"given...right circumstances, I would have done the same as Che."

Lovely - Welcome to the Paisley Popular Front, Councillor Wolfie Kelly in the chair.

You see nothing wrong in execution without trial and regard tying prisoners to chairs and personally blowing their brains out as a hobby you could enjoy. How very Stalinista.

Tell me Terry, where do you stand on fox-hunting?

Anonymous said...

"Why would anyone want to call for your version of democracy when they have 95% turn outs ?"

Forward, Comrades!

Guthrie said...

"given the right circumstances I would have done the same as Che"

Over recent weeks you've sympathised with teenage bus bombers, saying that you can understand why they do it. You now say the same thing about Che and his supporters.

People like you shrug your shoulders and say, 'I know that you've murdered people but, hey, I can understand why and it doesn't make you a bad person - that sort of thing is fine by me'.

Don't you think that if the likes of you would only have the confidence to unequivocally condemn these people, and their actions, there might be fewer people murdering and executing? Maybe, just maybe, it would stop another teenager blowing himself up. Maybe it would stop some extremists (admittedly not all) thinking that there is a peaceful alternative to slaughtering people at Glasgow airport.

Or are you not brave enough to do that?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - This is not what you wrote - you're a liar as well as a racist.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumbold - S.A. Insult ? It's an insult because people like Henry were part of Apartheid, they benefited from an evil so what are they ?

Remember the song "I've never met a nice S.A." It wasn't me who wrote it but it's an insult just the same, why do show sympathy for someone like Henry Crun / do you also support Apartheid ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - Will you admit to being a liar in the service of Apartheid ? You thought you could get away with lies because you 'lived there' you stated categorically that "the S.A.D.F. did not shoot any black people, it was the police"

I mentioned Sharpville and your memory got better now you admit that the S.A.D.F. did shoot black people with the craven proviso of course that all those 50 black people killed and 169 maimed by the S.A.D.F. Were armed with AK47's These totals rose after the bloodletting and the dust settled to 69 dead and 180 injured. You must be proud of your association with Apartheid, proud enough to lie for it.

Henry Crun said...

"Henry Crun - This is not what you wrote - you're a liar as well as a racist."

If that isn't what I wrote. Publish the original comments and prove it!

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Byeck) You're trying my patience again do you want me to cut you out ? I didn't say that I saw nothing wrong with execution without trial or that I could make a hobby of tying people to chairs and blowing their brains out, can you not write anything without lying ?

I believe that they regarded this as a revolutionary war against a mighty enemy ( America and the CIA ) no side gave any quarter, I'm saying that if I was a Cuban at that time I like to think that I would have had the courage to stand with the revolutionaries.

Che. And Fidel are heroes, Che. will remain so not least because he was summarily executed by CIA trained /financed Bolivian soldiers. Fox hunting ? unless it's Liam Fox I'm against it.

Guthrie said...

"I didn't say that I saw nothing wrong with execution without trial or that I could make a hobby of tying people to chairs and blowing their brains out"

Oh, I see. To my shame, I have to confess that when you said...

"I would have shot as many of the CIA/Batista Goons as I could, in quite moments I would have dug them up and shot them again"

...I also failed to realise that you actually intended that the CIA/Batista Goons would have first been put through a fair trial, before being, er, shot, dug-up and, er, shot again.

Or did you decide, in a moment of frustration, to make fun of these tragic historical events?

Rumbold said...

Terry:

"Remember the song "I've never met a nice S.A." It wasn't me who wrote it but it's an insult just the same, why do show sympathy for someone like Henry Crun / do you also support Apartheid ?"

All I was doing was pointing out that to keep referring in a derogatory way to someone's nationality/race when it has no bearing on the conversation can be construed as xenophobia/racism. I am intrigued that pointing this out makes me a supporter of Apartheid.

Who do you prefer, democratically-elected Morales or dictator Castro?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Guthrie "Over recent weeks you've sympathised with teenage bus bombers" you're a liar. I stand by what I said about Che. He's a hero.

"People like you shrug your shoulders and say, 'I know that you've murdered people but, hey, I can understand why and it doesn't make you a bad person - that sort of thing is fine by me" More lies, you are a crook Guthrie.

'Am I not brave enough to do that' It's me who is taking the dangerous route here you are so courageous that you spend your time posturing about how tough you are, you are the coward you haven't got the courage to admit that talking tough is no solution.

Anyone who doesn't mirror your pathetic tough guy populism is soft right ! you lying coward.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - I'm not printing your racist poison.

Henry Crun said...

"Henry Crun - I'm not printing your racist poison."

In that case, I suggest you retract your accusations of "racist" and "liar".

If you cannot or will not post my original comments then it is you who are the racist for continually harping on about me being white, and you are also the liar because your allegations are completely unfounded.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Guthrie - If You are fighting a revolutionary battle against a bigger, richer, better equipped army who also happen to be enthusiastic murderers you shoot them dead before they shoot you.

Similar to what the CIA backed Bolivians did with Che.

Henry Crun said...

"I believe that they regarded this as a revolutionary war against a mighty enemy ( America and the CIA ) no side gave any quarter,"

So that's alright then. Perhaps the SA Nationalists believed they were in a counter-revolutionary war against Marxism. Goodness knows they kept harping on against the communist threat often enough. So as long as you believe your cause is just it's okay to kill people.

I see where you are coming from now.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - You've got this wrong I don't harp on about you being white I harp on about you being a 'white S.A. Supremacist supporter of Apartheid'

As a point of interest I'm sure people who read this would like you to explain why I wouldn't print your first two comments and I have printed everything you have written since ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - I don't know if you will ever see where I'm coming from but, here's a nice one for you to try to make something of, "So as long as you believe your cause is just it's okay to kill people."
The answer to that is yes and the salient point is the word 'just' I doubt if you're capable of understanding that though.

Guthrie said...

"If You are fighting a revolutionary battle... you shoot them dead before they shoot you"

Is this not the exact same justification used by extremists all over the world for their murderous acts? The London Underground bombers, for example?

Guthrie said...

1. You've sympathised with teenage bus bombers - "you're a liar"

You have said that you can understand why they do it. You refuse to call them murderers. You sympathise with them. QED.

2. "you are the coward"

Ok, Terry. I have the wotsits to say that if the IDF bulldoze a house intending to kill the civillian occupants, they are murderers and must be condemned without question. If a Palestinian teenager blows up a busload of Israeli citizens, then he is a murderer and must be condemned without question. The same applies to the British govt and Gerry/Martin in N.Ireland (if either had blood on their hands).

Now, do you have courage to say the same? If so, hurrah for good reason. If not... BOOM! You have practically helped the teenager on with his bomb belt.

Neil Harding said...

Terry, I'm a socialist as well, but I can see that Castro has many faults and I'm sure Che as well. It does you no favours trying to gloss over the facts on these people.

It is indefensible that Castro denies proper elections in Cuba no matter what his paternalistic motives are and whatever beneficial health and education his people receive. It is also undeniable that his treatment of homosexuals is bad (though let us not forget that homosexuals were imprisoned in the UK not so long ago).

Henry Crun said...

"As a point of interest I'm sure people who read this would like you to explain why I wouldn't print your first two comments and I have printed everything you have written since ?"

I would be delighted. And the answer is simple. You do not agree with my contention that Mandela was a terrorist as it does not fit in with YOUR version of events therefore you accuse me of being racist and refuse to publish. An easy flag to fly, racism.

Why not publish? You could always publish with a disclaimer that the comments are that of a poster not your own. Your own front page claims that the opinions on your website are yours and not those of the Labour Party.

Publish the comments so that everyone can judge for themselves whether I am a racist or not.

Your continued refusal to publish just confirms what everyone else believes about you - that you are a liar, that you only publish things that fit in with your own jaundiced view o the world, that you think you are always right and no-one may disagree with you.

So here's the challenge: Have the courage (a trait Gordon Brown so admires)and publish those original comments in a separate blog post and allow them to be judged on their merit.

And don't amend them. You know and I know that no langauge was used in those posts that could even be misconstrued as inflammatory.

Better yet. Why not take those posts to the police and file a charge of "hate crime" against me. Go on, I dare you

Henry Crun said...

"I'm sure people who read this would like you to explain why I wouldn't print your first two comments and I have printed everything you have written since ?"

No you haven't. Yesterday I responded to your post on the Sharpevill shootings and directed you to a wikipedia link.

The wikipedia entry gives a factual account of the Sharpeville shootings; that it was the POLICE. Not the SADF that were involved that day.

So, because I have shown you to be wrong again about a country you have never visited yet seem to know so much about, you refuse to post.

You are a liar.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Guthrie - Is it possible that you are beginning to grasp some of this ?

"Is this not the exact same justification used by extremists all over the world for their murderous acts? The London Underground bombers, for example?"
Yes you are right extremists murderours all over the world do this but, and here is what you don't or won't understand, people in pursuit of just causes fighting against oppression also do these things.

You of course know with absolute certainty who the good guys and the bad guys are don't you.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Guthrie - ... "I sympathised with teenage bus bombers " Anyone who is genuinely concerned with these issues and continually takes the simple populist route is a sabre rattling coward, that's you.

Any teenager who is in such despair and has abandoned hope to the extent that they are ready to take their own life in a suicide bombing has my utmost sympathy.

That does not mean that I condone their actions, your suggestion that I do makes you a liar and a populist tough talking coward.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Neil harding - I can't do other than accept your word that you are a socialist, a socialist who disagrees with me, so what ?
"It does you no favours trying to gloss over the facts on these people." what facts are they Neil ? what did I gloss over ? I think you might mean that you don't agree with me, does that mean that I gloss over, if it does you must be someone very important.

I believe Cuba to be more democratic than any western state I have condemned Cuba before for various things such homosexual rights, excessive bureaucracy , corruption, I have never claimed it to be perfect. It's a better society though than any in the west and I believe that time will prove me right.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - "You do not agree with my contention that Mandela was a terrorist as it does not fit in with YOUR version of events therefore you accuse me of being racist and refuse to publish."

You have called Mandela a terrorist many times and I have published it many times - so that sounds like a lie doesn't it.
Would you like to try again ?
"would like you to explain why I wouldn't print your first two comments and I have printed everything you have written since ?" Including you calling Mandela a terrorist !

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - Didn’t you just concede that the S.A.D.F. Shot black people who fired at them ?

Let’s try again, did the S.A.D.F. (your old regiment) shoot black people ?

Henry Crun said...

And still you refuse to publish the original comments about which you make so much noise, which you continue to accuse me of "racist poison". Where's the moral courage?

Is that the sound of chickens I hear in the background. Like your own vainglorious leader, you have no backbone.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Henry Crun - Come on you're not in S.A. anymore you're no longer the 'boss man'
You said I refused to publish your comments because you called Mandela a terrorist claiming not to have written anything racist right ? That was your stated reason for me not publishing you right ?

Now then Henry, use that fine Apartheid education and concentrate, I have pointed out to you that you have called Mandela a Terrorist in other comments and I published them so, it follows that I banned these two comments for some other reason right ? Are you still with us Henry ?

That other reason was racist filth Henry, racist filth !
"I have no backbone" ? is that what sustains you when you are shooting unarmed black children Henry ? good old S.A. Apartheid backbone !

Henry Crun said...

You continue with these accusations of "racist filth"

Yet you continue to deny others to judge for themselves whether it is "racist filth".

Again. I say to you, if it is "racist filth" surely it warrants a waddle down to the police station for you to lay charges against me.

Either put up or shut up!

Anonymous said...

It's a better society though than any in the west

Ah, that'd be why thousands risk their lives every year to escape, I suppose.

Also, why not publish Henry Crun's comments? You can star out any words you don't want to appear on your website - leave the first letter alone and I'm sure we will all guess.

Patrick

Henry Crun said...

""I have no backbone" ? is that what sustains you when you are shooting unarmed black children Henry ? "

How typically socialist of you, hiding behind the childruuuuuun. It was a common tactic for ANC thugs to send children out onto the streets to throw stones at the army trucks.

Most of the children I came into contact with would tell us that the ANC threatened to burn down their houses or rape their sisters if they didn't do as the ANC requested.

Nice company you keep.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Patrick I've already dealt with this, I have printed everything he has written after he got the message that I would not print racist filth, as you have said before it is my site and there are some things which I won't touch, I call it standards.

Read closely what I say about Cuba Patrick, you are getting lazy.

Cuba is not paradise, Fidel is not perfect, the revolution is only 60 yrs. old, how old are Britain and America how old is Capitalism ? and look at the state we (the west) are in, Cuba and Socialism are the future.

Henry Crun said...

"Cuba is not paradise, Fidel is not perfect, the revolution is only 60 yrs. old, how old are Britain and America how old is Capitalism ? and look at the state we (the west) are in, Cuba and Socialism are the future."

So why are you still living in Scotland? I'm sure the Cubanos would welcome you with open arms and we'd be only to glad to wave you goodbye at Glasgow airport.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - 'ANC thugs' 'ANC threats to burn down houses' 'ANC threats to rape their sisters' good God Henry Apartheid S.A. did the world a favour didn't it. Of course your not a racist Henry of course your not.

Henry Crun said...

"Of course your not a racist Henry of course your not."

Either put up or shut up!

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - This seems to suggest that you don't have much left - I'm still living in Scotland because this my home, where my family and friends are.

I have never felt the urge to leave, some people see an opportunity to leave and better themselves at the expense of others such as black S.A.'s and, lacking any morals or decency they grab it, no matter how much injustice and suffering they cause they are overcome by greed and they go for it, no matter how squalid and brutal the enterprise is, some people are just made that way I suppose.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - You are running on empty henry aren't you, I bet your glad you started all this eh ?

You made the mistake of thinking you could treat me like you could treat people beneath you in the good old days right ? poor Henry, no longer the 'big boss'

Henry Crun said...

"H.C. - This seems to suggest that you don't have much left - I'm still living in Scotland because this my home, where my family and friends are."

Then why do you harp on about socialist paradises like Cuba?

"I have never felt the urge to leave"

Is that because anywhere else you wouldn't be able to leech off the welfare state?

Henry Crun said...

"You made the mistake of thinking you could treat me like you could treat people beneath you in the good old days right ? poor Henry, no longer the 'big boss'"

No I take as I find. I just treat you with the contempt you so deserve.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - Where did I call Cuba a Socialist paradise henry ? I've tried to remind you before you're not in S.A. Now, you don't have the whip hand anymore.

I know it must be difficult for you with your background but you can no longer expect obedience from 'inferiors' you seem to be struggling with that 'boss'

"Is that because anywhere else you wouldn't be able to leech off the welfare state?" do you mean like you and your family leeching off the black S.A.'s you're heroic dad and your family are leeches by any definition, unable to cut it here you moved to a place where you knew you could cut it.

You knew you could cut it in S.A. for the same reason as the others who went there, qualifications ! you all had the right qualification, your white skin ! Parasites !

Henry Crun said...

"You knew you could cut it in S.A. for the same reason as the others who went there, qualifications ! you all had the right qualification, your white skin ! Parasites !"

Oh dear, I'm going to have to type slowly again.

My dad, rather than leech off the state, was offered (look up the meaning in that book that tells you what words mean) a place on a government emigration scheme because there was a lack of electrical engineering skills in Southern Africa.

Perhaps you should look at the opportunities that ESCOM helped create at Caborra Bassa, The Lesotho Highlands Water Project, Koeberg, Ruacana. All husge construction projects that put food in the mouths and clothes on the backs of tens of thousands of African children.

Or does that not fit in with your jaundiced and increasingly insignificant view of things. What a bitter little man (although not much of a man) you are.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - Poor Henry 'big white boss man' no more, "get me this boy get me that boy" no more, "you can't walk/stay here boy " no more, "you can't wash here boy" no more, "you can't ride on this bus boy" no more, "Ridgeback dog, bite that boy" no more, "see this noose boy" no more.

No wonder you hate Mandela, he took all that away didn't he, you have the Apartheid stigma and you have to live with it, perhaps you could think about showing some regret, ask the human race to pardon you !

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - You are right about the lack of engineering skills in S.A. and there was a reason for that but, I remember people going there and working in well paid jobs as electricians while in this country they couldn't fit a light bulb.

Corrupt the lot of you, you cut it because you were white, racism didn't bother you, the executions of black people by the state didn't stop you, the pass laws didn't stop you.
Nothing would have stopped you because of your greed and total lack of any morality.

I'm bitter when I'm confronted by a liar who is trying to excuse himself from the guilt of being one of those who propped up Apartheid, you.
Maybe you should be more careful who you try to bully in future and remember you no longer have the whip hand, people like me are not about to roll over, this is not S.A. Henry, get used to it.

Guthrie said...

Get over it, Terry. Mandela managed it. He lived through it. You, on the other hand, haven't even bothered to visit the country you bang on about so much.

Henry Crun said...

"H.C. - Poor Henry 'big white boss man' no more, "get me this boy get me that boy" no more, "you can't walk/stay here boy " no more, "you can't wash here boy" no more, "you can't ride on this bus boy" no more, "Ridgeback dog, bite that boy" no more, "see this noose boy" no more."

I'm sorry but what are you on about? It was real life not some BBC colonial docu-drama. I think you have been reading too much Robert Ruark. Maybe the colonials behaved like that in Kenya.

Perhaps that's how you would like to subjugate Africans, but your speech bubble is so far removed from reality it is laughable.

But of course, being as well travelled a person as yourself, you know better.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - I fear you will go to your grave defending S.A. And Apartheid that is your cross, your guilt - none of this happened right ? Have you never heard of books, newspapers, Radio, Television, Eye Witnesses, Historians etc. Were you told by the regime that they were all liars ? Did you buy everything they told you Henry ? Were you 100% compliant ?

"I'm sorry but what are you on about?"
I'm on about S.A. Under Apartheid Henry the thing you are lying about because, if you ever owned up you would die of shame.

Henry Crun said...

" Have you never heard of books, newspapers, Radio, Television, Eye Witnesses, Historians etc. Were you told by the regime that they were all liars ? Did you buy everything they told you Henry ? Were you 100% compliant"

Err no. I lived there, I experienced everyday life in South Africa. And it is so far removed from how you seem to envisage it. Perhaps that's how life was in the 1950s but I wouldn't know because I wasn't there then.

I can go by my own experience.

Please point out where I defended apartheid. At no time have I defended apartheid. I have only pointed out your factual inaccuracies.

I may have criticised Mandela and his ilk mainly because they were no better than the people they wanted to replace.

Henry Crun said...

"see this noose boy"

Is this the petard by which your own arguments have been hanged?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - "Err no. I lived there, I experienced everyday life in South Africa. And it is so far removed from how you seem to envisage it."

This is truly cringe worthy Henry - everyone, you me everyone, holds opinions and beliefs about many things and many places, places we have never visited, this means that we would not know about any country that we hadn't been to. That's a pathetic argument.

"Perhaps that's how life was in the 1950s but I wouldn't know because I wasn't there then"
Henry, get off your knees - lies and more lies - Soweto 1976 - Sharpeville 1960 - Indefinite imprisonment without trial with no visitors allowed 1967 - pass laws 19 60 - 1986 - of course you didn't know Henry, you were only following orders weren't you.

You have written much about S.A. and Apartheid and I haven't seen you do anything other than condemn Mandela not Apartheid or the evil S.A. Regime, you spend most of your time trying to convince me and yourself that you were one of the good guys, you liar.

Anyone who can write about S.A. in this way is de facto a racist, maybe you are in denial.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - Feeble Henry feeble, white S.A.'s don't do humour - speaking about nooses Henry, would you like to tell us how many blacks were hanged during the time you were there ?

Not the fifties just the period when you knew nothing, the period when you were only following orders.

Henry Crun said...

"Indefinite imprisonment without trial with no visitors allowed 1967"

And isn't it ironic that your own LAbour Party and a once vehement anti-apartheid campaigner now supports the very same policy for Islamic terrorists.

" - pass laws 19 60 - 1986"

= ID Cards propose by the Labour Party 2007.

Henry Crun said...

"You have written much about S.A. and Apartheid and I haven't seen you do anything other than condemn Mandela not Apartheid or the evil S.A. Regime, you spend most of your time trying to convince me and yourself that you were one of the good guys, you liar."

Then go back to the original posts, publish them and let everyone else decide for themselves if that is what I am doing.

Up to now, everyone else has had to take your word for it, which most visitors to this blog know isn't worth very much in terms of credibility.

I wasn't born when Sharpeville happened, I was still at school in 1976 - how does that make me responsible. It makes me no more responsible than you are for the Second World War, the Holocaust, The Vietnam War or the Pol Pot regime.

Your continued refusal to publish the original comments merely undermines the basis for your entire argument and continued tirade attempting to portray me as something out of Mississippi Burning. Now, be a big person, publish those original posts and then we can move on.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - You went there completely innocent and remained innocent, you knew nothing of the Townships, nothing of the pass laws, nothing of the hangings.

Does the labour party support Indefinite detention without trial without visitors ? I didn't notice that one.

How many hangings was it you didn't know about when you were only following orders Henry ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - "I wasn't born when Sharpeville happened, I was still at school in 1976 - how does that make me responsible. It makes me no more responsible than you are for the Second World War, the Holocaust, The Vietnam War or the Pol Pot regime"

What kind of man are you Henry - I missed the 1St. World war I campaigned against the Vietnam War and Pol Pot - You by contrast were a member of the S.A.D.F. While these atrocities were happening, how many hangings was it that you weren't aware of when you were following orders Henry how many ?

Please don't compare me in any way with someone like you.

Henry Crun said...

"While these atrocities were happening, how many hangings was it that you weren't aware of when you were following orders Henry how many ?"

Honestly? I have no idea. I wasn't in the prison service. The death penalty was meted out to all who committed murder; white or black. Fact, not justification.

By the same token, how many innocent men andwomen were necklaced in the townships by the ANC thugs? How many were shot to death by ANC thugs? Not white people Terry, black people. The ANC's war wasn't on the white establishment it was a war of intimidation against their own people, subjecting them to terror on a daily basis.

Imagine not being able to walk to work without being intimidated into a strike, imagine taking the train not knowing whether you would reach your destination without being stabbed with a sharpened bicycle spoke, imagine going to work not knowing whether or not your children were safe within the school gates; safe from intimidation or being forced into a demonstration; those who resisted the intimidation were beaten and raped and sometimes killed. That was the reality. That is what we had to deal with on a daily basis.

Where were you when this was going on? Jeering from the sidelines like you are doing now. How very brave. How very bourgeois.

Henry Crun said...

" you knew nothing of the Townships, nothing of the pass laws, nothing of the hangings.
"

By the time I served in the townships the pass laws had long been abolished. I don't remember any hangings in the townships, necklacing and stoning were the preferred ANC methods of execution.

Henry Crun said...

"I campaigned against the Vietnam War and Pol Pot"

What did you do? Write Lyndon and Pol a letter?

"Dear Pol,

How are you? Hope you are well. I read in the Guardian yesterday that the Khmer Rouge are murdering people. Please tell this is not so. This will make me look bad as I am a socialist. So can you do me a favour and expel all the journalists.

Many thanks

Terry Kelly
A Socialist from Scotland.

PS: Hope you like the haggis I sent."

Reply:

Dear Mr Kelly

Many thanks for your letter. What are we supposed to do with the haggis. It looks like some of the body parts my soldiers play football with.

I have noted your concerns and expelled all the journalists, I think. Please do not worry about looking bad anymore. I'm sure you will sleep much better knowing this.

Your friend

Pol"

How noble you were.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - You are an apologist for evil.

This stuff is clearly driven by racist hatred of the ANC as well as guilt.

Outside of up front Apartheid supporters I've never read such poison.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - I've heard of Holocaust deniers but you take the biscuit - the ANC were the villains and the SADF were the good guys wow ! you don't even seem to be worried about what people might make of you either.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - I tried to warn you about S.A. humour. Was that your argument ?

Henry Crun said...

"I've heard of Holocaust deniers but you take the biscuit - the ANC were the villains and the SADF were the good guys wow ! you don't even seem to be worried about what people might make of you either."

The ANC certainly were the villains from what I saw - how can you justify the necklacings, the beatings and rapes perpetrated? Or does that fit in with your as long as the cause is just it's alright" belief?

Personally I don't care what people think, least of all you. I know what I saw - I saw the pain and suffering on a daily basis. Mothers crying for their sons and daughters, wives for their husbands, husbands for their wives. I watched as a black policeman was hacked to death by ANC thugs wielding machetes as he tried to stop them marching to a Zulu hostel. He stepped down off the police truck, unarmed to try and stop certain bloodshed - and they hacked him to death. While we (the SADF) could do nothing because we were not allowed to intervene. That man left a wife and three children.

Just because the reality doesn't fit in with your jaundiced view you throw accusations of racist poison. How is it racist to try and protect people from intimidation - answer me that? How?

How is it racist to work weekends in Baragawanath Hospital because the nursing staff were too terrified to come to work?

In another thread, you puff yourself up about speaking the truth even if it hurts - perhaps, just perhaps you should practive what you preach and understand that your "truth" is merely a perception of what you believe to be true. Then again maybe you just can't handle the truth. You know nothing of what went on there, absolutely nothing.

So where were you Terry? Where were you - jeering outside South Africa House?

If having served in the SADF and protected people, black people Terry, and tend to their wounds, and comfort the families of those who died - if that makes me racist - then guilty as charged and you can go and fuck yourself.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

H.C. - I'm going to let you away with that ending because I want people to see exactly what kind of creep you are.

I don't know how many words you have now written about S.A. But I hope that people will note that in your opinion the troubles were the fault of the ANC, never any mention of what was done by people like you to the black population, it wasn't your fault, as I've said many times Henry, you were just obeying orders right ?

Joburg international Airport Airport is now Tambo International Airport and a statue went up in London the other day to this great man. Men such as Tambo and Mandela are recognised all over the world as fearless heroes against the evil S.A. Apartheid Govt.

The same regime that people like you refuse to condemn, what kind of human beings are you ?

You and your kind are defeated, no wonder you're so full of hatred and poison - if there is a god you will all rot in hell.

Henry Crun said...

"You and your kind are defeated, no wonder you're so full of hatred and poison - if there is a god you will all rot in hell."

See you there then

Rumpole said...

I'm surprised you haven't banned H.C. for that wonderful bit of satire. We all know how much you hate being that butt of people's jokes.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rumpole - If you admire Henry Crun's humour you're in big trouble.

Go to 'Che' and see the comment of Oct. 18 Th. 07 at 7.41 am and you will catch a glimpse of the strutting Henry Crun who is an apologist for evil, read that and see if that's funny.

MR MERT said...

"If I had been a Cuban peasant with a gun and the courage to use it, I would have shot as many of the CIA/Batista Goons as I could, in quite moments I would have dug them up and shot them again."

Since I feel somewhat angry at the needless death, decay and sheer negligent handling of every single aspect of this country by ten years of "New Labour", would I be considered a hero for strutting down WHITEhall and popping off members of the parliamentary Labour Party, or would I be, as you clearly are (and, being an RMN, I should know), considered to be, in your ever-so-PC terminology, a Nutjob? Seriously, having read some of your blogs and responses to your 'views', the majority of which have been very sensible and mature, I can only conclude that you sincerely lack the fundamental skills to debate without resorting to name calling, and deriding any opposing opinion because of your own prejudice. People of your nature (i.e. coffee-table socialists, liberals) are the reason that our economy is failing, the population are afraid to enter hospital in case they either acquire an infection (take your pick - C.Diff, MRSA, MSSA) or are treated by utterly stupid, incompetent clinical staff who have benefited from 'equality initiatives' such as MTAS. It is people of your calibre who, although state they are against any kind of discrimination, clearly develop and maintain bitter prejudices and offload all the venom acquired in their sorry little lives. You are the reason why we cannot discuss, reasonably, immigration, for fear of being charged, by narrow-minded collectives of which you are a member, with being racists. I do not own Jack-boots and my uniform was NOT designed by Hugo Boss. I am hoping for one of two things: 1) that you are serious about what you write and are willing to defend, openly, your views, or 2) that this is all one big joke, and I'll get it at some point, because I would be very concerned if it was not.

Mr T.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Mr.T - 1/ IMO New labour have done and are doing a reasonable job.
2/ What's an 'RMN' 3/ I don't resort to name calling, I do however retaliate.
4/ Our economy is not failing. 5/ I have extensive knowledge / experience of the NHS and I am Proud of them. 6/ I am non racist, non sexist, non sectarian and I don't have a sorry little life. 7/ no one is stopping you discussing immigration, certainly not me, bring it on. 8 / I am serious about what I write, except when I make a joke, I always openly defend my views, you should be concerned.

There you are, not one insult I didn't accuse you of lacking skills or being prejudiced though I was tempted, nor did I accuse you of being part of a narrow minded collective, I think I'm ahead here.