Tuesday, October 23, 2007

POLITICS AND SPORT

They should never mix should they ? well that has been the mantra for ages of the privileged elite who can afford to exclude others on grounds of race, creed, class or colour, it still goes on in 2007 - I remember watching a documentary on this subject years ago and found out to my shock that the home of fair play and British values 'the All England Tennis and Croquet Association' known to us mortals as 'Wimbledon' were guiltyas hell.

From their creation the club had a tradition of awarding life time honorary membership to anyone who won a Wimbledon title, singles, doubles, mixed doubles etc. the documentary makers found out that one person in all that time had been refused this honorary membership, she was a Dutch woman who happened to be Jewish.
She did not want to comment and the upstanding elite Wimbledon people refused to discuss the matter, I don't know if this garbage still goes on but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

The rugby world cup showed the games ugly face of racism and elitism, England were misrepresented by a majority of toffs and white South Africa's ruling rugby elite showed that they were still entrenched in the Afrikaner mire.
Black and white S.A.s suspended hostilities for a short time until the old Springbok arrogance once again saw them strutting. The team of 15 had 13 whites 2 mixed race and no S.A. blacks this is in a country where S.A. blacks number 19 million 87% of the population, and whites 4.5 million.

S.A. is heading for a situation where players will be picked on colour rather than merit which is wrong but, make no mistake about it, the blame lies with the white Afrikaners who dominate rugby they will not cooperate, they refuse to do the right thing, white opposition politician Helen Zille said " if racism still exists in rugby it must be stopped" note the word 'if'

These are the people who will complain about politics mixing in sport, the Springboks, the white S.A. elite, the answer ? think back to the seventies 'stop the tour' that's the language that the Afrikaner racist understands, that's the language that should be meted out to them again by all rugby playing countries and all rugby people everywhere, it's time for a level playing field in S.A. and here.

114 comments:

Jackart said...

You're beyond satire! you really are...

Ingram said...

It's nothing to do with the fact that very few black South Africans play rugby is it? Their sport is soccer. Do a bit of research next time and you'll save yourself the typing...

Falco said...

I take it that you will be supporting the introduction of rugby into state schools then?

On the basis that I doubt that you'll see the sense of the above: If not why not?

PS - Rugby is a posh game does not count as an argument.

Surreptitious Evil said...

So you'll be pressing for Rugby Union to be introduced as a compulsory alternative to Soccer in all Renfrewshire schools, will you? Or why don't you just speak to Wendy and get her to try to have it introduced throughout Scotland?

I'm sure Alex will look kindly on more excuses to appear in public surrounded by successful sportsmen and Annabel has clearly spent some of her school time in the scrum :) - nope, this should be a no-brainer cross-party initiative.

And the fact that it would be a completely illiberal and widely unpopular initiative should be no difficulty for Scottish Labour.

The reason that "toffs", throughout Britain, play Rugby Union is because it is available and encouraged at school and university. Where the only sport available is (increasingly, sitting down and watching, on the telly, because there are no playing fields and the little kiddies might hurt themselves) football, then it should be no surprise to any politician who can be bothered to actually think about it (so you are clearly let off) that there is not going to be a huge state school representation in any Rugby team.

You might want to do some comparison between the Scotland players who grew up in the Borders, as opposed to the Central Belt (RU being played at state schools down there) and England players from their North (mostly starting through Rugby League) as opposed to the Stockbroker belt. Or look at the Welsh or Irish teams? Perhaps you will also censure the French team for geographism for most of their players being from the south of the country (where they actually play rugby?).

S-E

RfS said...

Terry, you have shown that you know nothing about the sport of rugby. Instead, you have replaced the void of knowledge with your own prejudices and bigotry which you should be ashamed of.

England were "misrepresented" by the toffs? What about the England football team? They over-represent the demographic that earn £100K a week. Surely then every football team should now include 50% of those who earn £24k a year?

The over-representation of "good universities" in English Rugby is simply down to the fact that a decade ago the sport went professional, before that the player had to earn a wage as well as play for their club and maybe their country, a real working class endeavour if ever there was one. Read Martin Johnston's autobiog to see how he struggled as a bank teller and England international, even the story of having to buy his own new pair of boots before a Tigers game.

With the advent of the professional era many still choose to earn degrees (rugby careers are short, brutal and not well enough paid to set someone up for retirement at 35), education to improve yourself clearly being something to be despised in your world. But a greater number of players are coming through the academy system and in the future you will not see the same level of uni representation.

And we have seen that in past encounters you are so blinded by hatred of any white South African that your judgement can easily be dismissed.

You are right, sport and politics should not mix if only because you know so little about either as to make it a waste of your time writing all of this.

And you know what is intimidatingly boring? A 0-0 draw.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


England were misrepresented by a majority of toffs


Apart from the obvious hilarity that this sentiment offers, how would you propose to fix this "problem"?

Canute said...

Councillor, perhaps the selection of team members is based on ability rather than colour. Perhaps, also, the selection of members of a basketball team should be examined for hints of racial stereotyping?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Ingram - I don't agree and I'm not alone. Blatant discrimination goes on in S.A. Rugby, it always has done and you sound like an apologist for it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Falco - Rugby is a posh game, it's boring, it has very little skill, etc. counts as an argument though, if I'm allowed an opinion that is.

I wouldn't oppose the introduction of rugby I just happen to think that it has, in this part of the world, found it's level. I'm sanguine about it if it takes off then good luck to it, as long as it cleans up it's act.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

SE - I'll comment on your last para. the rest has nothing new.

Rugby is popular in the borders, northern England, Wales, yes, Ireland, no.

You might want to do some research into the background of the Scottish and English international players, it should be no surprise to anyone who cares to think about it (even you) that there is a pattern there, a pattern which clearly marks it out as elitist.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - I'm printing this drivel because I don't want to be accused of censorship, but I'm only going to comment on two things.

"And we have seen that in past encounters you are so blinded by hatred of any white South African"

That's a downright lie, are you exhausted ?

"And you know what is intimidatingly boring? A 0-0 draw."

That's so American, points or strikes or penalties have to happen every couple of minutes because the actual play involved is so lacking in skill that without constant scoring there would be no reason to play/watch - the fact that a 0-0 score can be a great game is one of the reasons that football is the world's greatest game.

RfS said...

"That's a downright lie"

No it is not. Some of the vile comments you have made about white south africans in the last couple of weeks have been horrific. I think you used the phrase "racist parasites" at one point, hardly a term of affection. Your record is plain for everyone to read and your attempt to call me a liar over it is pathetic.

And as for the no-score draw, some would argue that the lack of a score indicates that not a lot of skill was being employed in the game would it not?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - What makes you think I would want to sort it out ? I'm only pointing out that it's a farce when these people claim to be representing their country at sport.

Ben said...

I started playing rugby at the age of 19 and found it to be extremely inclusive. I have since played with and against players of international level (although I have never reached that level myself).

There is a very good reason why I didn't get to the upper levels of the sport - I wasn't good enough. I played with a young mechanic over 20 years ago and he is now the manager of Gloucester who are currently top of the English Premiership. He has never attended university and started from humble beginnings.

You state that the game of rugby is (in your opinion) boring and lacking in skill, I would never be so presumptuous to say that any top flight sportsman is lacking in skill as I have seen th eamount of time and effort required to attain those skills. I would concede that some people are more naturally gifted than others but I recalll a footballer called Kevin Keegan who stated that the only way he gained the skills he had was by constatnt hard work.

This is your Blog and as the saying goes you are entitled to your opinion, but your views do appear jaundiced.

Falco said...

Terry,

you think that Rugby is "boring, has very little skill"? Have you ever seen a match? Scotland, when not killing the ball at the try line, produce some memorable games. Go and have look.

The reason that I said "Rugby is a posh game does not count as an argument" is because poshness or lack there of is immaterial to the merits of the sport. I understand that you view posh and evil as absolute equivalents but you really should get over that.

Finally, this chap may like a word:

http://tinyurl.com/2zzjgx

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


IP - What makes you think I would want to sort it out ? I'm only pointing out that it's a farce when these people claim to be representing their country at sport.


LOL

The English rugby team is a farce?

Have you considered taking this show to Edinburgh in August? You'd clean up at the comedy festival...

Monterey and Melbourne would be there for the taking, if only you could tear yourself away from the 'struggle'

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Canute - I have no doubt that the S.A. team is picked on ability, with the proviso that white S.A.s have every opportunity to develop that ability and black S.A.'S don't.

Are you suggesting that's what happens with basketball players ?

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


Rugby is popular in the borders, northern England, Wales, yes, Ireland, no.


Ahem! Are you really this daft?
Ever been to Dublin? Limerick?
Cork?

Honestly, just visit Google.com and type in a few key words to verify whatever drivel you're about to type and get some evidence, rather than relying on your own narrow minded experiences... although the afternoons would admittedly be duller without you.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - "And as for the no-score draw, some would argue that the lack of a score indicates that not a lot of skill was being employed in the game would it not?"

Oct. 23 Rd. 07 - Ibrox park Glasgow - Rangers v Barcelona 7.45 pm kick off, you are an idiot.
What you said was "And we have seen that in past encounters you are so blinded by hatred of any white South African that your judgement can easily be dismissed."

That is a downright lie.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Ben - Thank you for your comment, I'm sorry you found mine jaundiced, I'm used to dealing with some jaundiced people here.

Keegan is a good example of someone making the very most of his abilities by hard work, my experience of rugby is limited never having played, I do consider the game at the highest level here and in England and Ireland is elitist and in S.A. It's racist.

Given a level playing field in terms of height /weight/ fitness etc. A footballer, never having played rugby, IMO would be able to master it easily whereas a rugby player, certainly an adult one, never having played football would struggle badly, what do you think ?

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


my experience of rugby is limited never having played,


But still willing to pass judgment on the levels of skill required.


I do consider the game at the highest level here and in England and Ireland is elitist


Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

political atheist aka Mutt aka ? said...

***Given a level playing field in terms of height /weight/ fitness etc. A footballer, never having played rugby, IMO would be able to master it easily ***

Put your money where your mouth is and shut all these elitist, racist snobs up once and for all.

You have already been told training nights are Tuesday/Thursday 7pm start. Come down and prove yourself right and all of us wrong.

Tell you what let's make it interesting you show up, prove your point that the game is sooo easy to play and none of us will ever gainsay you again. In fact we will all walk down Paisley High Street wearing sandwich boards with the words "I am an elitist, racist loser".

If you prove yourself to be wrong you say so on here hows that?

Or are you a challenge-dodging-coward?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Falco - "you think that Rugby is "boring, has very little skill"?" I don't think that there is a great level of skill involved but it's not strictly true to say that I find it boring, I've been here before and I didn't want to go back into the detail.

I thought that the world cup final was awful as were most of the games, I see the authorities are talking about rule changes to make it more exciting so I'm not alone am I ?
I find it can be exciting at times, obviously when the ball is being passed at speed and the line is approaching but having to sit through guys kicking the ball into the crowd and kicking the ball over the bar from 50 yds. is turgid. When did you last see a flowing move, when did you last see a team choose to run when they were within kicking distance ?

I agree that being 'posh' is not evil you can't help your background, Tony Benn is de facto 'posh' isn't he, and he's a great guy. I detest privilege, exclusion and elitism etc. Some of which taints the world of rugby, and other sports too.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - Does this mean you disagree ?

Ben said...

I am a firm believer that to play any team sport at a competitve level you need a high degree of co-ordination. It has been my experience that many players that I have encvounetered have been able to turn their hand to mosts sports.

Do you recall following the last world cup, I think it was Nike arranged a PR meeting between Beckham and Wilkinson? Wilkinson impressed DB with his quick take up on the requirements to swing a dead ball around a wall and Beckham was surprised at how difficult it was to kick a rugby penalty?

I am well built (some might say bloody big) and my experience of a lot of football players is that they believe that playing rugby would mean having to tackle people of my size, and this is off putting. This is where part of the skill comes in. I know a lot of footballers that would have the bottle to tackle somebody 3 times ther own size, but to do it without breaking your neck takes skill.

A thought - New Zealand have the All Blacks as their National Team and they also send the New Zealnd Maoris on tour. The latter are obviously not quite as good as the main national side, but they still play National sides.

This IMO would be a good way of showcasing the black SA players and introducing them to an international audience. It would also eliminate any claims of bias one way or the other in regard to their ability to play at the top level in their sport. I have not seen many black SA players playing in SA, but the wife cancelled Sky so what the hell. I have been a coach, manager and player for over 30 years and some I have witnessed some outstanding black players. Whether they are good enough to play inetrnational or not is debatable. I do think it would be a mistake to simply select a team based on proportional representation.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - I don't agree with you here I'm afraid, must you be so insulting ? can't you just rely on your argument, I'm trying to behave myself but you are trying my patience,

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - Absolutely, for the same reason that I think golf is very skilful although I've never played, I've never played Shinty, hockey, water polo, horse jumping, and many others but I don't consider them skilful, what about Australian rules ? Is that skilful ? This is of course only M.O.

It is elitist.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - Anyone who hangs his argument on a physical challenge with me is a 'challenge dodging coward'

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Ben - thank you for these interesting points I know comparisons are difficult but I was careful to say that I was referring to pound for pound players.

Forgive my ignorance but do New Zealand not have Maoris in their main team ? Jonah Loumo etc.

I do not advocate picking anyone for any other reason than their ability, my problem is that the Springboks have had approx. 15 yrs. ? Or so to have black players break through, they are clearly not prepared to budge, they were forced before and I think it's time to do so again. Their attitude is an affront to humanity everywhere.

Byeck said...

Nothing to do with the Great Rugby Debate, but much to do with the basis of your article and your real beef - Elitism, who you know, picked according to background not merit, born to privilege, (see your Churchill remarks) family influence (again, see Churchill remarks)etc.

Did you know that the Welsh Boyo's lad, young Stephen Kinnock, in addition to being married to Denmark's Opposition Leader, is Director of the British Council, which is chaired by his Dad?

Oh, and the Kinnock daughter, Rachel, works in the No.10 political office.

Given the Neil and Glenys EU connections, we could have a dynasty here to rival the Churchill's.

Any comments re favouritism, Councillor?

Political Atheist aka Mutt aka ? said...

***PA - Anyone who hangs his argument on a physical challenge with me is a 'challenge dodging coward'***

***Anyway, I'm in the mood for martyrdom so, George Bush you are not a nice man, so there and, furthermore I offer to meet you anywhere and at any time with a view to you and me engaging in unarmed combat.***

You were saying?

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


Forgive my ignorance but do New Zealand not have Maoris in their main team ? Jonah Loumo etc.


Lomu is a New Zealander of Pacific Island Descent - Tongan.

New Zealand have many players who qualify as Maori.

They are however often criticised for their habit of cherry picking the best of the pacific Island talent, so often the All Blacks are a mix of Kiwi, Fijian, Tongan and Samoan... the argument is that this is to the detriment of their home countries.

The retort is that they are offering young talented guys from these Islands the opportunity for a better life, by offering them scholarships based on their rugby abilities.

In the bad old days of the 70's and before, the All Blacks were conversely criticised for ignoring the Polynesian & Maori talent and playing a 'White' All Blacks...


I've never played Shinty, hockey, water polo, horse jumping, and many others but I don't consider them skilful,


I'm sure most people on these boards already have a view on how good your judgment is.


what about Australian rules ? Is that skilful ?


Yes, very skillful sport demanding good hand-eye-foot coordination and high levels of speed, strength, stamina & agility. Hope that helps.

RfS said...

Unfortunately your ignorance is showing again.

You readily admit you know nothing about rugby but that you also "know" it is elitist. How do you know that if you don't know the first thing about the sport? This is simply a prejudice you have.

Again, you have a rugby team in your area, they play other teams in Scotland and I don't think in all my years I have ever played against a team who would fit your one-eyed description. It just does not happen and you clinging to this idea is laughable. Why have you never visited the club that some of your voters play for? Are you concerned that what you see there may not agree with your received opinion on the sport? Is this another "fact" your father told you?

If someone gets to be the very best in a sport, regardless of what sport it is and they play a team from another country then they should be allowed to say they represent their country. In the end who does it hurt if a show jumper claims to represent their country if their team makes up 50% of the competitor pool? Not me, so it should not matter. By the same token the (exclusively white) scottish football team does not represent every person in the country so should they be allowed to say they represent the country?

And FYI, Jonah Lomu is not a Maori (I must assume you seen a non-white face and thought "native"). He is from the pacific islands and is an example of the problems facing those nations (again where it is the national sport and a working class one at that) when the All Blacks poach their best players. They "find" grandparents to justify eligibility and screw the smaller nations. The All Black management are not nice people.

And well done for speaking so nice to Ben despite the fact he is a retired high ranking soldier.

Ben said...

You are correct in that NZ Maoris can play for the All Blacks, as black SAs can play for the Springboks, the suggestion was that it may be a way of putting more black players on the world stage.

I take on board your point that after 15 years there has still been littl eadvance, I do not have access to the statistic, but it would be interesting to see how many black rugby players there are in SA. Having said that Habana is a class act.

22 drop out said...

You talk about relative skill levels of rugby and football. The belief that rugby has no skill is borne out of ignorance.
So often in football competitions we see teams at the very top knocked out by teams many divisions below. Sometimes even by complete amatuers. This very rarely happens in rugby. This clearly implies that football is the easily matered game that virtually anybody can easily get a handle on (hence it's popularity).

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


I don't agree with you here I'm afraid, must you be so insulting ? can't you just rely on your argument, I'm trying to behave myself but you are trying my patience,


Sorry, which bit did you find insulting?

Look, I'll even do it for you.

www.google.com

"Is rugby popular in Ireland"

result 1:
"The Ireland rugby union team, represents both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in rugby union, a popular sport throughout Ireland although the dominant one only in limited geographical areas."


result 2:
"During the 1860s and 1870s, Rugby along with Association football started to become popular in Ireland"

result 3:
"Gaelic football and hurling are the most popular sports in Ireland, with soccer and rugby also being popular."

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Byeck - I know nothing about Kinnock's family but I would say that if any of them were as fatuous as old daft Winnie it would be a serious misdemeanour.

Churchill and his kind could get away with this kind of thing but I think it would be extremely risky for someone like Kinnock nowadays. The daughters name would do her no harm at number ten but, the son, I think you would find him to be well up for the job.

I'm opposed to favouritism, from half witted royals through the high military command to the banks and the city, our society is rife with it, not many failures come out of Eton and Harrow do they ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - I will be more careful when I'm dealing with you in future.

You see I was having a laugh, I didn't really think that a/ Bush would read it and b/ That if he did he woild take me up on it.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


not many failures come out of Eton and Harrow do they ?


Is there the slightest possibility that could because they are excellent schools??

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - All this tells me is that you either know about New Zealand rugby or you looked it up.
"I'm sure most people on these boards already have a view on how good your judgement is." Meaning what ?

I asked that because I have Australian cousins who played this and they told me it was nothing to do with skill. Just strength, fitness and aggression, I wouldn't know I played football which is of course about skill, ability, tactics, fitness, grace, power etc. etc.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


All this tells me is that you either know about New Zealand rugby or you looked it up.


Am fortunate enough to have lived overseas for a number of years some in the city where Aussie rules was king. Also fortunate to be able to count a good few kiwi's amongst my close friends.


I played football which is of course about skill, ability, tactics, fitness, grace, power etc. etc.


Yes, I'm every bit as fond of football as you seem to be.

Here's a thought though - how were the Scottish Asian population represented in your football playing days? or even now for that matter?

It always seems strange to me that there are no top class Asian footballers in Scotland...

political atheist aka mutt aka ? said...

***You see I was having a laugh, I didn't really think that a/ Bush would read it and b/ That if he did he woild take me up on it.***

So you are in fact a coward dodging your own challenge???

***Anyone who hangs his argument on a physical challenge with me***
You really are a master at verbal mainpulation aren't you. I was not making any form of physical challenge to you.

I was, as I am sure your many and varied readers understood, offering you the opportunity to "stand by your words" as it were.

***A footballer, never having played rugby, IMO would be able to master it easily***
You claim rugby is without skill and would be easily and quickly picked up. I, and RFS, were merely offering you the opportunity to prove yourself right by attending one of our training sessions and showing you can "master it easily".

The offer still stands Terry, come along and prove us wrong.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Most of this has been covered.
"Why have you never visited the club that some of your voters play for?" I have seen bits of lots of games when I was playing football sometimes we played at pitches where rugby was being played and caught parts of the games, I must confess though that we tended to find it hilarious.
"I have ever played against a team who would fit your one-eyed description." That's because you have never played against the Springboks, England, Scotland or Ireland and now I've learned New Zealand. I've no doubt that there is an element of egalitarianism in rugby at your level, no harm in that, I'm sure people enjoy the club.
You are accusing me of something I haven't done, I'm not a fan of the game and I think it's elitist at high levels, stick to that.
I've very rarely visited any club that my voters play for or are members of whatever kind of club.

"If someone gets to be the very best in a sport," If they get to the top, well done to them but, please don't tell me that Princess Anne doing the ludicrous Dressage at the Olympics is representative of her country, it's an embarrassing farce, so is Olympic Sailing, Archery etc. Etc.
"Is this another "fact" your father told you?" You seem fascinated by my dad, actually he played rugby in the army and told us it was fun, the officers played the men and gave them a sound thrashing every time but, said Private Kelly it gave us the chance to have a kick at some of the arrogant B------- and there was beer after the game.

Anonymous said...

Where do you dig up such drivel?

Just to correct some of your more spurious statements:

Most Blacks play soccer, the hot-bed of black rugby is the Eastern Cape that has a total population (all races) of 1 million.

The Rugby Administration is run by Oregan Hoskins for the last two years (a man of colour), prior to that it was run by Brian Van Rooyen for 5 years (a man of colour).

Helen Zille is not white.

What is scary are that some of your supporters will actually believe the garbage you put on this blog.

A Proud Rainbow Coloured South African that is sick of European Know-it-alls

You sir, are a menace to the truth.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Ben - I take your point about putting more black players on the world stage but I would not go down that route.

I would grasp the nettle which is racism and cut it out for the cancer that it is.

Anonymous said...

Terry, it is clear from what you have said that you dislike rugby (an understatement maybe). It's one thing to argue that sport x is better/worse than sport y. It is quite another to use your dislike for a sport as fuel to defame that sport with rather crude generalisations (interestingly racism and elitism are influenced by a form of generalisation so what makes the opinions you form using your generalisations less 'dangerous'?)

You have never played rugby so allow an INFORMED opinion to reassure you that there are a high number of demanding skillsets in rugby or else it would surely not matter who was picked for any game. An obvious point but who knew you'd need it spelt out for you?

That aside, let's now tackle (excuse the pun) your opinion that rugby is elitist. ALL sports at the top end are elitist. Else, like I have already said, anyone could play. As for it being elitist at grass roots. No rugby club I have ever been to would reject any member based on colour, creed or class. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on homophobia in football (a sport you clearly enjoy). Oh, wait, sorry, all footballers are straight (except 1). Hmmm, odd.

As for your comment on rugby being boring....your opinion - I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.

Finally, South Africa... Yes there is definitely a lack of representation (purely on a percentage basis) of black SA's in their national squad. It is rather unsound, however, to simply draw the conclusion that selection is therefore discriminatory. There are many demographic factors that mean that few black SA's are capable (or indeed concerned with) making the grade to play for the best team in the world. A player would have to filter through these external factors to make it that far. You cannot put it at the feet of the rugby team to destroy these external systems. Tragically, there are those that still have not moved on from apartheid in all walks of life in SA, but to single out the rugby team for critisism is grossly unfair.

Also, whilst we are just 'stating our opinion', you seem to be rather hateful yourself and I suggest that your motives for writing this blog may not be to stimulate relevant debate, but to gain...notoriety? You are in a position of responsibility and you should use your 'wisdom' to calcualte the vallue of your contribution before you launch into your next target. Who will it be, the tiddly-winks team? I am sure they are trembling with anticipation.

RfS said...

"egalitarianism in rugby at your level"

Well, progress of sorts if we now get you to admit that not all rugby is elitist. And you are right, at international level all sport is elitist because only the best play. You have yet to point to examples of the old boy network in the Scottish rugby camp, although I suspect that you know just as much about scottish rugby as you do about AB rugby.

You rarely visit clubs in the area yet your committee told Paisley that they were not getting planning in order to sort finances out because they were "middle class" (contained in a report from the developers discussed at management some years ago) and in response I had to compile a list of occupations of the members to be sent with the appeal.

Still, don't let facts get in the way of a good prejudice.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

22 drop out - An unusual take on it but you can't get round it that easy, those who couldn't play football and still wanted to play a team sport went to rugby.


So, rugby more skillful than football ? it's a wind up right?

political atheist aka mutt aka ? said...

Given that the majority of commentors who frequent this blog do so for politically charged reasons (or for the comedy value) I though it might be a good idea to widen this conversation to other rugby fans and players who have never heard of Terry and will not gainsay say him just because it his him.

I posted a link to this debate on the BBC 606 forum. Terry you might find the comments from some of the genuine politically disinterested rugby fans and players quite illuminating.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - That's much better, better language but still wrong - Rugby in Ireland is similar to that in Scotland and England when you get to a high / international level it's elitist.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - I never thought of that.

If that's your considered opinion you are in a bad way.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - I'm not aware of any barriers to anyone in Scottish or indeed any country playing football.

Maybe you could put me right but, the last time i looked it was the most inclusive team sport there is.

RfS said...

You will remember up above I posted about a 0-0 draw being boring and you hit back with the comment that the Rangers game this week was evidence of it not being boring? Did you miss the point that this was the game to which I referred?

I watched the last 10 minutes when Barca played for the draw. As they shuffled about in midfield I wanted to rip my own arm off so the blood rhythmically spurted out a ruptured vein just so I had something less repetitive to watch. Now that was dull.

By contrast in the France - NZ game in the closing stages, even with the clock ticking down and the French in possession there was the chance that the AB forwards could turn over the ball and score the winning try, that got the blood pumping.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


when you get to a high / international level it's elitist.


Ah!!! I get you now...
You are, of course, ripping the proverbial pish from us...

Of course at a high level it's elitist, that's where the elite
players go, to the highest level.

So, when the Bell Baxter boys carry on playing and getting encouragement / coaching from the SRU. The ones who keep working hard, avoid injuries and develop as we all hope they will, will become our elite rugby players and an affront to the representation of our country, which actually has a much higher proportion of FUB's than we will probably pick for the National team, although a few will probably still make it given recent results...

Do you think many Asian footballers will have broken through the ranks by then?

Anonymous said...

If you believe that proportional representation in sport is correct, may I ask why you are not insisting on 2 asian players in the England Rugby team and one in the Soccer team? After all 10% of England is Asian.

Or do you not class them as English?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - Ok I've given you a chance to get out of this but you are clearly too stupid to take it, is RFS offering me the chance to train as well ? I think you are at it and this goes to the top of the list of the most idiotic comment yet.

See if you can work out why.

political atheist aka mutt aka ? said...

***Ok I've given you a chance to get out of this***
Get out of what Terry?

***but you are clearly too stupid to take it,****
Resorting to insults again, tut tut!

***is RFS offering me the chance to train as well ***
Dear God man pay attention! He made the offer before I did.

***I think you are at it ***
That'll be the persecution complex kicking in then?

***this goes to the top of the list of the most idiotic comment yet.

See if you can work out why.***

Because you apparently do not have the courage of your convictions to back up your words with deeds when offered the opportunity to do so. Instead you ignore the question in the hope it will go away and attempt to use insults to cloud the issue.

Yes Terry, both RFS and I are offering you the opportunity to train with us.

Very simply if you believe what you say about the relative skill levels required between football and rugby you will take up the offer and prove yourself right.

Failing to take up the offer will be seen by the majority that frequent this blog that you do not in fact believe in the words you have been spouting.

RfS said...

"I'm not aware of any barriers to anyone in Scottish or indeed any country playing football."

So when SA field a rugby team of whites with a couple of blacks they are racist, when England field a team of whites with a couple of blacks they are elitist but when the SFA dont have a single non-white face in their first team U21, U18 and U16 teams that is OK because you dont "know" of any barriers in football.

Just like you don't "know" of any barriers in rugby. Except for rugby you just fill that ignorant void with puerile identity politics prejudice.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

I'm not aware of any barriers to anyone in Scottish or indeed any country playing football.

Which is exactly the same situation for rugby. No ifs, buts or otherwise. Anyone who wants to chase the egg, simply needs to come along to their local rugby club where they will be welcomed with open arms.


Maybe you could put me right but, the last time i looked it was the most inclusive team sport there is.


Within my sphere of experience, having actually played them all, football is no more inclusive than cricket or rugby as team sports.

Indeed, I would place the camaraderie at rugby clubs well above any I've ever experienced with football.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

By the way, I forgot to post this to you.

google.com

"Female wimbledon champion jewish"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Buxton

She was English, not Dutch, but you are quite right, it is outrageous.

Disappointed said...

Councillor,

I read with interest your views, but, I don't understand why you haven't taken up the challenge to train with that team and play a game proving how easy it is.

As a voter I am interested in men of their word. I'm not interested in people in politics (or any other field) who shout out then run away.

Dan said...

Sounds like most poeple have said it alreayd, but Cllr you really have no idea about rugby, so leave the sport alone, you are one-eyed in your views and it's people like you who are dangerous to the existence of man-kind. Do some research you one-eyed idiot before you write your views. You website is nothing but a load of self-prmotional tosh, which I'll campaign to get shut-down. Engage your public properly you idiot.

Byeck said...

Terry
Stephen Kinnock is Director of the British Council and HIS DAD IS CHAIRMAN!!!

With the naive niceness for which you are not well known, you reckon it must be because he was best qualified.

And you go on to say that Rachel's name "would do her no harm at No 10."

C'mon Big Man, admit it - it stinks of nepotism, or are you saying that what's wrong for the alumni of Harrow and Eton is just fine if the parents are Labour Grandees.

By the by, can you please stop saying "You are trying my patience," as it reminds me of Herr Hitler when people disagreed with him and makes me come over all Churchillian.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Anon - None of this changes the fact that the Springboks are a racist team. S.A. Rugby is racist.

You sir, are an apologist for racism.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Anon - You take an awful long time to say much the same as the other apologists, e.g. S.A. Rugby isn't racist, rugby isn't elitist
"you dislike rugby" wrong, I like it in parts, maybe the rugby powers who agree with me that it needs rule changes to make it exciting will reduce the time of a game considerably and reduce the truly awful kicking
"ALL sports at the top end are elitist." When the sports are representative and the elite reach the top on a level playing field I have no problem with them.
I didn't say it was elitist at grass roots.
Homophobia is wrong everywhere.
"Tragically, there are those that still have not moved on from apartheid in all walks of life in SA, but to single out the rugby team for critisism is grossly unfair."
Another apology for the racist Springboks, dreadful.
My target here is injustice, racism and elitism.You tolerate, it I dont.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - You have persuaded me of nothing, my attack on rugby was aimed at International rugby in the British Isle (ex Wales) and Racism in S.A.

I have no knowledge of what you are on about with this middle class nonsense, if that happened it was wrong and I would not have sanctioned it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - I don't normally click on sites sent on comments but I did this time and I want to thank you, it was hilarious. And, yes it was illuminating.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - I spoke to Rangers fans who were as exhausted as they would have been had they been playing.

Not something you would recognise.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - We have done this - I have no problem with elitist sportsmen/women if they are there on their ability, not their background or colour, is that too difficult for you to grasp ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Anon - Can you get more stupid ? I'm asking for a level playing field all the way to the top, that's all. Colour and background irrelevant, do you follow that ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - You leave me no choice but to assume that you and RFS really are that thick so, pay attention right, when I said that I could play rugby right now I wasn't being serious.

I invite anyone who is reading this who thinks as you two do that I really meant that I could play rugby right now to say so, do you practice being an idiot or are you a natural ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - You keep defending them. I'll keep printing it, S.A. Rugby is racist, you have a lot more than me to convince, I'm not aware of any racist barriers in football, look at the teams.

You are arguing like a primary kid again.

Voter said...

With reference to the post at Friday, October 26, 2007 1:18:00 PM

As part of the electorate I confirm that I thought you, Councillor Terry Kelly, expressed the viewpoint that rugby needed no skill. Further I believed he expressed he could play the game now.

It seems therefore I am an idiot. I must be as I believed what you said Councillor Kelly.

Incidentally, I do not appreciate being called an idiot - I, along with the other tax payers, pay your salary.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - It wasn't that long ago that British rugby was in the gutter with Apartheid and so was cricket.

At International level in the British Isles (ex Wales) it's elitist and in S.A. It's racist.

What kind of people are you.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Disappointed - I am 58 yrs. Old several stones over weight, diabetic and have a bad knee. I wasn't being serious, it was a calculated insult i.e. 'it's so easy that even I could play' it worries me that you didn't spot that.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

I am 58 yrs. Old several stones over weight, diabetic and have a bad knee.


Have you considered dieting?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Dan - I have a good grasp of rugby - 'I'm dangerous to the existence of mankind' I'm a 'one eyed idiot' my web is 'self promotional tosh' you will campaign to 'have me shut down' and again I'm 'an idiot'

Dan, Dan, I don't think I've ever dealt with you before but, I'm getting the impression that you don't like me, and we've only just met, shame.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Byeck - Yet again nothing new here. You continue to try my patience.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


I'm not aware of any racist barriers in football, look at the teams.


Why should you be aware of them, you're not of Asian descent.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Voter - If you were really angry you would put your name to this drivel.

Not only are you an idiot for believing that I meant that I could play rugby right now but you are a coward as well.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - Dieting's easy I've done it hundreds of times.

Have you considered telling the truth about whether you believed that I meant I could play rugby now.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - So tell us about the anti Asian bias in football then.

RfS said...

"You keep defending them. I'll keep printing it, S.A. Rugby is racist,"

Well here is the rub Terry.

Just because you say it (and keep on saying it) does not make it true. You accuse others of being apologists for racism when all we want is for you to show us evidence to back up your libel.

You do not, and have consistently refused to. Instead you have retreated into this repeated statement whenever someone asks you about it.

No one I have read on your comments is apologizing for racists here, you are simply screaming it at the top of your lungs in the hope no one will notice your argument has fallen apart.

Political Athesist aka Mutt aka ? said...

*** when I said that I could play rugby right now I wasn't being serious***

Perhaps I am speaking out of turn her but you do seem to play the "I wasn't serious"/"I was only joking" card whenever someone offers you the opportunity to let your actions do the talking.

You want to be careful of that. Some people could end drawing unfair and incorrect conclusions as to your strength of character and belief from your lack of seriousness and all your joking.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


Have you considered telling the truth about whether you believed that I meant I could play rugby now.


Better check your insulin levels chief, nowhere in either of these threads do I consider that you would be capable of playing rugby.


P - So tell us about the anti Asian bias in football then.


Sorry, I'm not 100% fluent in Terry logic, but it does appear to me that the Asian population is not well represented in the top levels of Scottish football. I think I asked YOU what YOU thought of that originally...g

Voter said...

Quote : Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Voter - If you were really angry you would put your name to this drivel.

Not only are you an idiot for believing that I meant that I could play rugby right now but you are a coward as well.

Friday, October 26, 2007 2:15:00 PM
--------------------------------

Angry ? Who mentioned "angry". I said "I do not appreciate". Why must you hurl abuse at everyone ?

With reference to your "Drivel" comment.

You said "I invite anyone who is reading this who thinks as you two do that I really meant that I could play rugby right now to say so" ...

That is what I did.

From your answer I take it now that once again this was rhetorical and you didn't actually mean it ? Your blog seems full of these misunderstandings - perhaps you could colour code where you are actually inviting comment and where not ?
Alternatively, how about just saying what you mean ? It would be a lot easier.

You called me a coward for not telling you my name.
I have two reasons for this:
a) I believe it is my democratic right not to tell *anyone* where my vote goes nor to give an indication either. I exercise this right with all political parties.
b) I would quite like my bins still to be emptied thank you.

Lastly, you will notice that I've not resorted to the aforementioned name calling. Why can you not offer me the same courtesy ?

Political Athesist aka Mutt aka ? said...

***I wasn't being serious, it was a calculated insult i.e. 'it's so easy that even I could play'***

And as with most blowhards, when asked to put up or shut up - you choose the "I didn't mean it honest" defence.

Pitiable if it wasn't so laughable

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - I take it you don't read the papers then, there has been a mighty stushie about the Springboks and S.A. Rugby, honest I didn't make it up.

Anyway I identified you as a racist long before this came up. You keep defending them though.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

PA - The man with no name, let me try this again.

Anyone who thinks I was serious when I said that I could play rugby right now is either an idiot or a liar.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - I'm not aware of any anti Asian bias in football, what am I saying that you dont undertand ?

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


IP - I'm not aware of any anti Asian bias in football, what am I saying that you dont undertand ?


I don't understand how you can accuse rugby of being an elitist sport, when it clearly isn't, based on the representation of various ethnic or economic groups not being proportionally represented in the national team, whilst football is immune from the same criticism.

What is it about that you don't get?

RfS said...

What papers? Where? I read a lot of "trade press" and I have never seen anything about this.

And you have yet to prove a single charge of racist sentiment against me, although I appreciate your support in accusing Sarwar of that offense.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Voter - you sounded angry - you are of course entitled to hide if you wish I find it difficult to trust someone who wants to argue with me and remains anonymous.

You have just implied that I would retaliate against you by not getting your bins emptied but, I think you weren't serious right ? If you were that would be discourteous wouldn't it.

The problem with the playing rugby thing is that I don't believe you, as simple as that.

RfS said...

That quote detailing racist language on the telly that you like to refer to:

"UPDATE: Jihadists try to blow up our Airport, Strathclyde Police Chief Constable, Willie Ray, warn Whitey about "victimising minorities" just like Sarwar wanted. Links the incident to London."

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - Elitist by background, for god's sake man smarten up.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - You did know about, you've already commented on it.

Of course you're racist.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Why use racist language when you are going to fold as soon as you are challenged ?

Voter said...

Cllr Terry,

Ignoring the first part of your reply to me (I'll reply later if you wish) and just getting to the most important part, namely, :

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

The problem with the playing rugby thing is that I don't believe you, as simple as that.

-----------------------------------

Well, I am sorry to say it is true. This is simply because when I posted my original comment that I believed your statement (that you could/would play rugby) there was no reason to think otherwise.
To be precise, your post stating "I am 58 yrs. Old several stones over weight, diabetic and have a bad knee" was written a full quarter of an hour after my own post.

Why, pray tell, do you think I know your health and/or medical conditions?


However, I confess I am still not certain to the reason of why you are unable to attend a training session so kindly offered by two of your constituency members.

I totally accept only you know the state of your health and whether it is possible. I make no judgment. I understand that diabetes and bad knees can be very different in their debilitating effects to different people. If you are unable to put weight on your knee (for example) then, of course, we would all accept that you are unable to do any part of the game. However, if you can say kick a football then you are able do just try this. No-one is suggesting you should injure yourself.

In effect, rather than state it was all a big joke could you not go along and just practice penalty kicks ? I am sure the two gentlemen who posted would be happy to just help with this element of the game - no tackling, no running, just place kicking.
This would allow you to at least have an informed view of the comparative difficulties between taking penalties in football and rugby.

Whilst Paterson may make it look easy I think you would go away at least with a new found respect of what he can do.

Just for the record, I dislike insinuations about being a liar as much as being called an idiot.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


IP - Elitist by background, for god's sake man smarten up.


I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

'Elitist by background'... ???
What does that mean?

I can only assume that you now accept that rugby in the UK is a sport open to all who wish to play it. There are no barriers to how far anyone who has the ability, luck and application can go in the game regardless of creed, colour or circumstance.

We're now left with your opinions on the game itself... which you are perfectly entitled to, of course. A little bit tactless from one who has the potential to influence funding decisions and unfortunate from the rugby communities point of view, but c'est la vie, as we posh fellows like to say.

Happy to have helped you reach a better understanding of the world that passes you by.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Voter
"The problem with the playing rugby thing is that I don't believe you, as simple as that."

The same goes for the rest of this. If you must play these games, please make it shorter.

RfS said...

I didn't fold, you have been attempting to tar me with a particular brush. I have called you on it and now you appear to be squirming.

I take it then that you endorsed Sarwar's use of racist language then?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - Let me try again - " There are no barriers to how far anyone who has the ability, luck and application can go in the game regardless of creed, colour or circumstance."

Rugby at international level in the British Isles (ex Wales) is elitist - i.e. It has a bias toward those from the upper classes, is this difficult for you to understand ? Honestly, is it ?

By assuming that I would allow my opinion of rugby to influence a funding decision you are assuming that I share your values.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - Squirming is it ? whitey. I've just asked several colleagues about Sarwar's racist language and drew a blank.

Anyway if he did use racist language I would condemn him just as I do you. whitey.

Voter said...

Councillor,
My apologies for explaining my position to you (after you implied me to be a liar.)

Long winded ? - perhaps. I'll give you that.
However, rather than try to insult me again perhaps you should just set a limit to number of characters for a post ?
It's always someone else's fault with you, isn't it ?

I note you have completely ignored my reply - I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion as to your courage in your convictions.

Generally, I would be grateful if you could stop saying things if you don't mean it including, but not limited to, asking for feedback if you don't want it.
It makes discussions so much easier.
Some of your comments are serving to convey a false impression - I am sure you would not wish to do this deliberately.

Incidentally, do you have this problem in council meetings too ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Voter - I answered you when I pointed out that I don't buy this drivel, I don't believe you.
"Incidentally, do you have this problem in council meetings too ?" No I only have this problem with you because you are being disingenuous and, rather ham fisted.

Is this the truncated version ?

Voter said...

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Is this the truncated version ?

-------------------------------------


Am I meant to answer you or is this another "communication" problem you are so famed for ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Voter - Much better.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


Rugby at international level in the British Isles (ex Wales) is elitist - i.e. It has a bias toward those from the upper classes, is this difficult for you to understand ?


Yes

Honestly, is it ?


Honestly, yes. The upper classes?
What century are you living in?



By assuming that I would allow my opinion of rugby to influence a funding decision you are assuming that I share your values.


No, I'm taking you at your word, which was pretty much...
Investment in rugby is a waste of money

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP-
"Honestly, yes. The upper classes?
What century are you living in?" - 18 out of 22 of the English World Cup Squad came from privileged backgrounds.

IMO investment of money in schools rugby would be difficult to justify because of it's lack of popularity, not because I'm not a fan. You should try the truth for a change.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


IMO investment of money in schools rugby would be difficult to justify because of it's lack of popularity, not because I'm not a fan. You should try the truth for a change.


Are you really this stupid?

The following quote is lifted verbatim from your blog entry entitled "Rugby and Fitba".

It shouldn't be difficult to find.

" millions could be spent on facilities and coaches etc. but the outcome would never justify the expenditure because the game is just not good enough, not skillful enough, too contrived, "

That is the exact basis for my concern.

Anonymous said...

YOU - "S.A. is heading for a situation where players will be picked on colour rather than merit which is wrong but, make no mistake about it"

ME - "Sorry to disappoint you ya trumpet but did you see there were coloured faces in the South African rugby squad in the World Cup?"

I Albion said...

I blame you all for even answering Mr Kelly ,you are just encouraging him ,and giving him hope;fatal!

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

IP - You don't seem to understand, rugby in these parts is not popular enough to attract large investment and IMO would not justify council investment.

I think it is not popular because it is "not good enough, not skilful enough, too contrived," that's M.O. And you are still avoiding the truth which is of course that what Cllr. Kelly likes and doesn't like is irrelevant it still would not get investment, I didn't invent the game , you can't blame me. Is that still too difficult ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

anon - yes I noticed that but you don't seem to grasp what's going on here.