Tuesday, June 15, 2010

"WITH THEIR TANKS AND GUNS WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO THE TOWN I LOVED SO WELL" SONG ABOUT DERRY - PHIL COULTER.

In 18 68 when Gladstone was asked to form a Govt. he accepted and said “My mission is to pacify Ireland” less than 50 years later there was what has become famous as ‘The Easter Rising’ renowned in songs and stories etc. and also the single most successful recruiting agent for Irish Independence and the IRA ever seen; the reason? Britain did what was quite common in such circumstances they reacted with wrath and unspeakable cruelty and the Irish remember it well. Britain was of course reacting to a rebellion against the Crown and they did not mess about; the prevailing wisdom was that the victors had to make an example of the losers and they did. Not much later they did the same with Germany after the first world war and both of these conflicts were to come back and bite them later; Germany of course in a far more serious way.

Further back when Henry “orator” Hunt the famous radical dissenter addressed the mighty crowd at St. Peter’s Field Manchester in the cause of parliamentary reform in 18 19 the meeting was attacked by cavalry and 15 were killed and as many as 700 injured; the reformers called it the ‘Peterloo Massacre’ to link it with Waterloo which was 4 years earlier when many who fought there that day had been hailed as heroes; that was the time right there to get your money on Parliamentary reform it became a stick on because; time had marched on and people easily heard about Peterloo and they, like the Irish later would remember.

An English character in the great novel “Ulysses” by James Joyce remarks rather grandly in a Dublin pub conversation “We English have treated you Irish rather harshly, it seems history is to blame” well; today I remembered this and more as I heard the conclusions from the “Bloody Sunday Report” many people waiting 38 years for this would be unaware that this was in fact “Bloody Sunday mark 2” in 19 20 not long after the Easter Rising the Royal Irish Constabulary and the British Army fired into a crowd at a football match at Croke Park Dublin and killed 12 and injured many more; it was a Sunday and hence became “Blood Sunday Mark1” You see since the ‘Rising’ Ireland had been looked after by a courageous band of well spoken well behaved chaps who became affectionately known as the “Black and Tans” whose idea of a good night out was to raid a pub get drunk then murder torture and burn down houses; their favourite game was removing finger nails with pliers and you should have seen what they did to the men; yes indeed there is “previous” here.

In any case “why is he writing all this” I hear you mumble well; it’s because it ties in with what I have been saying about the Israeli Defence Force and the Gaza Boat Raid this is what can happen when young men wearing uniforms are allowed to run wild with no control over them and; today’s report tells us what we all unquestionably knew by now; the British Army; not for the first time; from Ireland to Iraq and many points in between are as guilty as hell. The report and the details are very disturbing indeed and it cannot be allowed to end here; just like the boat raid these were murders and you can’t have a murder without a murderer and in this case the murderer’s commanders who are the ones who sit where the buck stops or at least where it should stop, but will it?

There will be a predictable outcry about dead soldiers and civilians throughout Ireland’s troubled past which is entirely understandable but; if you (the Govt.) want to go down the road of indiscriminately shooting people who are demonstrating in favour of what you see as the enemy then you should be aware that this kind of reaction is not without precedent. In the Second World War it was common for the Nazis to react to the killing of one of their soldiers by Italian Partisans for instance by murdering hundreds of non combatant Italian villagers and burning down their homes and farms (Israel?) It’s not the answer is it?

As human beings we must think of those people who fought the deceitful and scheming British State for all these years to prove their loved ones innocent; we must think of all those who suffered because this incident made matters worse. More died and were blown up because of the entrenchment caused by these actions and the lies of the British State and; last but not least we must think of the Soldiers who did the killing and this is the hardest thing of all for the victims who lost loved ones. These Soldiers were not much older than some of their young victims and they have now been living with the fact that they gunned down unarmed innocent civilians for 38 years; unless of course you take the line that is being taken for the apologists of Israel’s war crimes and say that they were armed with deadly stones and bottles. I would not like to carry such guilt around with me for life and I admit I do not know whether I would be able draw a line under it and forgive but I know that if I could not forgive then I would at least blame the real guilty ones, that is the British Army Commanders in charge of the whole bloody fiasco but; we have been here before have we not; will we ever learn?

23 comments:

Sprite said...

Are Adams, McGuiness and Kelly supporting demands for a closer look at Omagh, Enniskillen and the murder of Robert Nairac?

No, I thought not!

Anonymous said...

Perhaps you would also condemn all of the IRA atrocities and murders of innocent civilians.

Bombings, executions, maimings, kneecappings.

It is time to see peace and not to rake over the past.

To take a moral high ground here is not in the interest of the future.
The hands of both sides are covered in blood and now it it time to have them washed and start again.

To seek and apportion blame is to oppose an end to the troubles.

I would hope that this not your wish councillor.

There are innocent dead on both sides and there are many who have not had justice.

It is time to move on and look for peace and not blame otherwise there will never be an end.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 15/06/10
Predictable; sanctimonious arrogant bulldung. These crimes were committed by the state, are we to assume from what you say that the IRA – UDA – PROVISIONAL IRA _ UVF Etc. Etc. are due the same status as the British Army?

How can the British State condemn anyone when they behave just as badly? try answering that.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Sprite) 15/06/10
This is as predictable as it is pathetic; if you want to regard the IRA; UDA Etc. as equally valid and legitimate as the British Army then you are making sense if not you are talking C**P. Sounds like the latter eh?

Anonymous said...

And what of the thousands of innocents murdered in Iraq by who?

The Labour goverment of course.

And did they ever apologise for taking us to war under falsehoods.

I think not.

Labour do not know the meaning of the word apology.

Anonymous said...

Anyone protesting with bottles, stones,iron bars and knives are protesting with violence and should expect violence in return.

All of the above are potentially lethal weapons and anyone confronted with them should expect to defend themselves in the same manner.

Quite simple

Sprite said...

So, let's draw a line under the dead of Omagh, Enniskillen and move on, is that your message, councillor?

And better not ask why McGuiness carried a gun on Bloody Sunday.. Oh sod it..let's ask..give us your take on that, Councillor!

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 09:48
Do you ever consider that you have to be a special kind of low life character to use the deaths of people in Iraq to further your own political prejudices?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 09:56

These people were not protesting with bottles; stones etc. they were defending themselves.

Your brutal philosophy is how we got 15 dead at Peterloo – no soldiers; 12 at Croke Park – no soldiers; 9 on the Gaza Boat – no soldiers; 14 in Derry – no soldiers and 1,400 in Gaza approx 2 years ago with 13 Israeli soldiers dead; 5 by friendly fire.
Shoot dead a boy throwing a stone at an Israeli tank? you are sick in the head.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Sprite) 10:42
I think we should learn from Omagh etc. to prevent it happening again; I note however that you regard the British Army as being the same as those who committed such acts. Who has the moral high ground the bombers or the soldiers in Derry?

Let me ask you a question which is not a flag waver you need to employ some intellectual rigour here (do your best); how does a man who was a leader of an organisation dedicated to ending British rule in N.I. and is alleged to have been the carrier of an illegal machine gun etc. etc. get to be Deputy First Minister of N.I. take your time.

Sprite said...

Kelly @ 11.47

How did McGuiness get to be Deputy PM of N.I.?

Suspect intimidation, Blair and Mandelson figure somewhere, but, back to my original post- would you back a call for enquiries into Omagh and Enniskillen?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Sprite) 13:50
I don’t know who you are used to dealing with but this will just not do; it was serious question and I asked for intellectual rigour I suspected that you would be out of your depth.
Why would anyone want an enquiry into Omagh and Enniskillen; what do you know that the rest of the world doesn’t?

O'Neill said...

McGuinness got to become "Deputy PM" (I think you probably mean Deputy FM?) by the process of the ballot box...I presume that's your point? Does that, in your book, absolve him and others in the hierarchy of Sinn Fein from responsibility for causing some of the most heinous crimes against humanity in W Europe since WW2?

Now, why would anyone want an enquiry into Enniskillen, La Mon, Claudy...(the list goes on)?

Basically to find out the truth about the crimes committed by those who now are part of our "government" and technically the British state, if you think about it.

In any humane society, those victims deserve exactly the same closure as received by the victims of Bloody Sunday, whether or not it is considered politically expedient in terms of the "Peace Process".

The fact that it was not state forces but terrorist organisations which caused the death of their loved ones is not irrelevant as you seem to imply, unless you believe, like Sinn Fein, in the Hierarchy of Victimhood. What is relevant is obtaining that closure and that will not be obtained until the respective individuals involved admit their personal responsibility- how likely is that do you think?

Hence the need for full independent enquiries in to the massacres previously mentioned...but you needn't worry, as I also previously mentioned to find out the "mastermind" behind, off the top of my head, La Mon is not in the interests of the "Peace Process" and it ain't going to happen any time soon.

Sprite said...

Kelly
Ref your 5.23 post.

Hot rumour says that Gordon Brown has checked into a Edinburgh Hospital for physcological treatment.

After that reply, I can only suggest you join him.

You disgust me.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Sprite) 16/06/10
I am a patient man; how many times did I ask you to show me where I had lied about the Amazon link; I take it you have given up that rubbish now.
I will try again; now that you have replied with your predictable outpouring of bile can you tell me why you want enquiries into Omagh and Enniskillen? What is it that you know that the rest of us don’t?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(O'Neill) 16/06/10
I think you are demonstrating a degree of cowardice by talking in riddles. The incidents you refer to have certain things in common 1/ they were all alleged IRA attacks 2/ they were all the subject of enquiries by the British State.

What is it you are trying to say? Why are your examples of wrong doing confined to one side only?

You make statements about the guilt of certain people which only despots and dictators make; you are not the law much as you would like to be; you demonstrate perfectly why the campaigners won the “Bloody Sunday” verdict, that is because the British State and its supporters in N.I. have been allowed to get away with anything they want for years. Hence the Civil Rights Campaign, The Troubles; Bloody Sunday and the rest of the whole wretched business.

Why are the British State’s enquiries into these incidents not enough? Widgery was a tissue of lies and the Paras lied at that enquiry hence some very dedicated people with right on their side campaigned for 38 years to put the record straight; there is no one stopping you from doing the same.

What happened in the American South and in South Africa eventually came to N.I. as serious thinking people knew it would. The real guilty parties are those who resolved to stop the march of democracy freedom and progress.

People who want to understand the intractible nature of N.I.'s problems should get to meet you.

O'Neill said...

Part2 (blogger wouldn't accept my full comment):

The real guilty parties are those who resolved to stop the march of democracy freedom and progress.

I believe in democracy, freedom and progress. I also believe the best way to obtain and then to guarantee them is through the creation of a truly Open Society; you apparently and most definitely, Adams and McGuinness are the people who do not.

People who want to understand the intractible nature of N.I.'s problems should get to meet you

Always more than happy to engage with political opponents either on their blogs or my own or even by email. I’m more than happy to let them rather than my political opponents make judgements about my attitudes, beliefs and any apparent prejudices.

O'Neill said...

I think you are demonstrating a degree of cowardice by talking in riddles.

The charge of cowardice I’ll let your readers decide on, but the one point that I’ll make is that the reason I blog and comment anonymously is the very real threat which still remains for those who comment on NI political affairs, and that is an *upset* which tends to manifest itself in something a bit more dramatic than an offensive comment on a blog. I don’t think I’d rank very highly on any hit list but for the sake of my family I’m not prepared to take the risk of putting my details online. Presumably you, of all people, can understand, that stance?

So, to the case in point.

I think anyone with the slightest knowledge of The Troubles in Northern Ireland won’t have any problem with solving those “riddles” but I’ll make it easy for you: Adams, it has been claimed in several books, most notably Ed Moloney’s “Secret History of the IRA” was ultimate person responsible behind the La Mon Massacre and a number of other “incidents” (eg the “disappearance” of mother of 7, Jean Conville).

The incidents you refer to have certain things in common 1/ they were all alleged IRA attacks 2/ they were all the subject of enquiries by the British State.

Only “alleged”, we don’t know then for sure? Ah right, those "enquiries", like the original Bloody Sunday one can’t have been very successful then, can they? Actually, one very important reason for that is that in the case of both La Mon and Claudy, despite numerous demands, there have been no “enquiries” as you stated.

What is it you are trying to say? Why are your examples of wrong doing confined to one side only?

I refer you back to my previous comment:

In any humane society, those victims deserve exactly the same closure as received by the victims of Bloody Sunday, whether or not it is considered politically expedient in terms of the "Peace Process".

Why are my examples confined to one side?
Because I think only one side committed attrocities? No. Because I think they are more deserving of my support than those murdered by the British Army or loyalist terrorists? Again, no.
I picked out those examples specifically because the victims of those massacres, unlike those carried by British State forces and loyalist terrorism, have no efficient or competent political organisation (SF) working hard on their behalf publicising their plight, they have been forgotten (disgracefully by the Unionist parties also). Every little bit of extra publicity, even on a hostile site like this helps.

You make statements about the guilt of certain people which only despots and dictators make; you are not the law much as you would like to be; you demonstrate perfectly why the campaigners won the “Bloody Sunday” verdict, that is because the British State and its supporters in N.I. have been allowed to get away with anything they want for years.

If I were talking previously in "riddles", then I have made no statements of guilt. I want a full and honest disclosure on the part of the guilty parties and the best way to force them to do that is by the same process undertaken by Saville.


Why are the British State’s enquiries into these incidents not enough? Widgery was a tissue of lies and the Paras lied at that enquiry hence some very dedicated people with right on their side campaigned for 38 years to put the record straight; there is no one stopping you from doing the same.

You answer your own question there, why were the original enquiries (which as I have pointed out in least two of the cases haven’t actually taken place!) not enough and then you give an example of an original British enquiry (Widgery) which was a “tissue of lies”? See your problem?
Indeed, there is no one stopping people like myself doing the same; question is would you support that fight to obtain justice and closure as you did in the case of the victims of Bloddy Sunday? If not, why not?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(O'Neill) 16:32
“I’m more than happy to let them rather than my political opponents make judgements about my attitudes, beliefs and any apparent prejudices”

You and me both, I think that you will find that those of us who don’t live in N.I. can see a bit clearer past the tribalism; tribalism that you clearly demonstrate.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(O'Neill) 16:32
“the reason I blog and comment anonymously is the very real threat which still remains for those who comment on NI political affairs”

I’m not buying that; I never said a thing about your anonymity; you are looking for sympathy already, very weak.

All the incidents you refer to have been fully investigated and/or enquiries held; held by the British State. I asked you to tell me what was wrong with them and you have failed to do so except for saying that you didn’t like them. Saying someone is guilty of something in a book does not mean that they are; you sound rather typical of the Ulster ruling class; we don’t need courts (Diplock) we just need your name and where you come from right.

“In any humane society”

Anyone outside of your ruling Ulster cleek would laugh at this; since when was Ulster a ‘humane society’? big blunder O’Neill big blunder! The troubles were caused by Ulster being an inhumane society.

I believe that your explanation for only pointing the finger at one side are identical to Widgery and the Paras who gave evidence; they are lies.

You throw accusations about like a drunk in a Belfast bar that’s because you were raised to think that you were the masters and you could do and say anything you like.

You are now saying that only two were not enquiries; let me remind you again you are not propping up the bar with your mates telling each other how right you are now.

I would support any enquiry if I thought it was justified; that makes your position untenable because you have not made a case for one I asked you why and again you can’t answer. You offer only a blind rant borne out of hundreds of years of ascendency and hatred.

If you want to carry this on you had better shorten your comments to what is relevant I’m not going to continue to spend so much time on this nonsense.

O'Neill said...

OK, Councillor, I'll make this a short one.

1. Do your research on those enquiries on Claudy and La Mon and get back to me.

2. "you sound rather typical of the Ulster ruling class;"
Born and bred in E.Belfast.

Father was a welder at Harlands, unemployed for 10 years. I had to move to England myslef in order to find employment. I sure don't feel a part of any ruling-class or ascendency, but sure it's a part of the mythology about "my sort" so you go right ahead there and throw in the stereotypes.

Rest of my comments, let's see if you let them stand once you've had the time read them again.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(O'Neill) 17/06/10
1/ You are the one pushing this what is it you have to say about them; how many times is that I've asked you?

2/ Your family CV is exactly as I described you; the Ulster Ruling Class.

Harlands? Those were the good old days right? 8,00 workers and 400 of them Catholics; thousands of armed ‘B. Specials’ and none of them Catholics; you were the ruling class all right weren’t you?

Your remarks about whether your comments would be allowed to stand on this blog are not surprising considering your background but this is not your Ulster, they will stand.
Much shorter well done!

O'Neill said...

A son of an unemployed welder accused (by a someone who labels himself a socialist) as being a member of the "ruling class"...dear, oh dear.

OK:

La Mon:
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Mon_restaurant_bombing"

"In 2002, there was a resurgence of interest in the case when the British Parliament considered opening up a new inquiry to discover the culprits. These plans have so far come to nothing."

Enniskillen:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1440240/Vital-clues-not-followed-up-after-Poppy-Day-bomb.html

"Detectives who investigated the Enniskillen Poppy Day massacre, in which 11 Protestant civilians were killed, have still not followed up a statement from a fellow officer that could have been vital in catching the bombers.

A further report from a Protestant clergyman placing a senior IRA bomb-maker at a house 24 hours before the bombing also appears so far to have been ignored, The Telegraph has been told.

Victims of the 1987 attack believe there is insufficient political will to reinvestigate the atrocity because republicans associated with it are now closely involved in the political process.

Despite being promised a review 18 months ago the Fermanagh and South Tyrone Terrorist Victims' Association claims it has still not heard anything from the police.

The association held back the information on the two sightings before seeing what the review would produce.
But the victims' families have decided to make their information public after becoming frustrated with the police investigation"


Your thoughts?

Don't worry, you've got the last word on this one, I'm off, bigger and slightly better informed fish to fry.