Nelson Mandela has been honoured by a big statue in Parliament Square, alongside Abraham Lincoln, Jan Smutts and Churchill, a president who freed the slaves, a S.A. Prime Minister who championed slavery and a British Prime Minister who would have embraced Apartheid given the chance.
Mandela recalled a visit to Parliament Square as a young man with his great comrade Oliver Tambo when they laughingly joked that it would be wonderful to have a statue in Parliament Square some day of a black person, now it's come true and it's him.
From the dock as a young man before sentencing he said he was prepared to die for his beliefs, what followed was long years of brutal imprisonment which he of course survived and triumphed over.
He was instrumental in overthrowing the evil of Apartheid and he also inspired people all over the world to fight injustice.
For years we attended marches and demo's as well as boycotting S.A. goods, we wore little blue badges with the simple message 'Free Nelson Mandela' everywhere you went people would see others wearing these badges and exchange a greeting or sometimes just a nod or a smile, it was like some kind of international brotherhood a world wide movement for a great man against a great evil.
I remember that at the time of his imprisonment the Young Conservatives dressed up in 'T' shirts which bore the legend 'Hang Nelson Mandela' some of these braying morons became quite prominent and some still are.
I hope the great man, like me, was thinking about them today.
One of them was the awful Ian Hamilton Tory MP who had a crime named after him, a financial bribe contained in a brown envelope became known as a 'Hamilton' very fitting for the party inspired by Arthur Daly.
Mandela will now always be a part of Britain with this statue, I took my oldest daughter Clare to see him and hear him speak on a wet Glasgow day I held her on my shoulders in the large crowd, and now I'm so proud that I did, some day she might tell her Grandchildren that her father took her to see and hear one of the greatest men of the 20 Th. century.
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167 comments:
Councillor
To repeat my point from another post: A truly Great Man would have come out against Mugabe.
So a murdering savage who blew people up gets a statue, just like all the other war mongers who are on statues.
We do it cheap hide our money in a heap
Send it home and make em study
Fixing teeth, I got family, a friend in need
A hand to throw the gasoline
A mobile phone hooked up to the scene
Hello my frind yes it's me
Dont be scared there's somethin going on
Im gettin money since I grown
Could be dash go out and hussel em
But I hate money coz it makes me numb
Hussel hussel hussel
Grind grind grind
Why has everyone got hussel on their mind?
Hussel hussel hussel
Grind grind grind
Why has everyone got hussel on their mind?
[AFRIKAN BOY]
You think its tough now,
Come to africa,
Out there we are grinding like pepper,
You can catch me on the motorway,
Selling sugar water and pepper,
I rep Africa not Miami,
Hustle hustle with m.i.a,
I'm broke I've got indefinite stay,
You can't touch me like leprosy,
I hustle tough from here to sri lanka,
My mum told me to be an accountant,
Bun that I wanna work in a corner shop,
Contact sugu he's got the contacts mayne,
I'm illegal I don't pay tax tax,
EMA yes I'm claiming that that,
Police I try to avoid them,
They catch me hustling they say deport them,
Hussel hussel hussel [2x]
Grind grind grind
Why has everyone got hussel on their mind?
Hello my friend, hello my friend
Yes it's me
4 by 3 ,3 buy 3 , buy 1 song get 1 free
Maybe me, a bootleg cd colour tv or dvd
We got barrels in the sea
Its big enough to take a whole family
We drum on it
Jun cha cha gegujun cha
Jun cha cha gegujun cha
Come sit by me, let me tell u we
Don't do bling but we do white tee
Up some jungle up some tree
One second , my phones ringing
Its my friend habibi
He then went drop called me
Cheap moroccan got no credit than me
Ya'll got less credit than me
I keep that tab at a shop like a gee
Coz without me there'll be no chocolate hershey
Hussel hussel hussel [6x]
Grind grind grind
Why has everyone got hussel on their mind?
Spot on about Mandela. To say he is a great man is an understatement.
Slightly confused by your assertion that the cons are inspired by Daley. Surely the other way round?
That aside their support for Apartheid shouldn't be forgotten however much they try to rewrite history now.
"I was Taken to see one of the greatest politicians of the 20th century, by one of the most laughable"
is I imagine how she would put it.
Incidentally your "British Prime Minister who would have embraced Apartheid given the chance" is just pathetic. You're making a caricature, a straw man of your own immagination, and hating that, whatever the man actually said or did.
"I wonder if the great man was thinking about the young tories"
Probably not, Terry - part of the man's greatness was his ability to forgive the past, and to recognise that it is not always important to have the last word. (A la the Truth and Reconciliation commission) Maybe you could take lessons? I hope that doesn't sound like an insult.
Also, it's a bit simplistic to call Smutts a "prime Minister who championed slavery." Smutts headed the "National Unity" Government, which generated most of its support, in the fifties and sixties, from Whites descended from British, rather than Boer, setters, and pursued a (relavtively) "moderate" approach to non-Whites' rights. Smutts was in fact defeated by the National Party in the 50s, who subsequently implemented "apartheid" (a word from the Boer language).
This is, of course, not a justification of Smutts' South Africa, just clearing up an inaccuracy.
they laughingly joked that it would be wonderful to have a statue in Parliament Square some day of a black person
There's racism, right there. Who cares if it's the most deserving person, they thought, so long as they're black.
Patrick
byeck - a simplistic, naive and biased assessment.
Anon - no wonder you are 'anon' Mandela never blew up anyone but he supported the right of black South Africans to join the armed struggle against the evil white regime.
I'm glad that you agree with my description of Churchill as a war monger though.
Your choice of language marks you as a racist moron.
Witchita - The language of Shakespeare and Milton - you just can't beat it.
Karla - spot on.
Councillor
Re my "Simplistic, naive & biased assessment"
Go on then, give me a smart sophisticated reason why Mandela has never come out against Mugabe or any other African despot.
Jackart - I don't agree that my assessment of Churchill is pathetic not admitting the truth about the old clown is however pathetic.
anon - Fair enough, I am not Mandela I would find it much harder to be reconciled with those responsible for Apartheid.
More credit to him.
I had the great honour of meeting Archbishop Desmond Tutu at a commonwealth Conference and he was the same as mandela about his former enemies, Truly awesome.
Anon - thank you for that, I wasn't as you probably know trying to hard to go into S.A. History, just pointing out the irony of Mandela's statue being next to Smutts.
Patrick - Nelson Mandela and Oliver Tambo racists ? Who would have thunk it.
If undeserving corrupt politicians like the idiot Churchill can have a statue in Parliament Square then anyone should be able to have one.
Don't you agree ?
Byeck - I think that there are lots of dictators and terrible leaders in the world and it's possible that Mandela is not on record as condemning them as well.
Maybe he likes Mugabe, thinks he's a great guy - you would buy that wouldn't you, go on, tell us what Mandela thinks of Mugabe, go on.
Byeck - I don't doubt that people like you supported Smith, some people are attracted to evil.
You forgot to mention that they ate the children from that aircraft, they then boiled down the aircraft parts and drank the liquid.
We could send 3 Para. To Harare and tell them to emulate what went on in Kenya in the fifties, a glorious part of British military history.
You sound just like the kind of chap who would have loved it.
There is no fury like that of a non combatant, is there ?
If undeserving corrupt politicians like the idiot Churchill
Undeserving - You don't think being, y'know, the first man to stand up to the Nazis is worth something?
Corrupt - I dare you to find me evidence that the man had so much as a parking ticket.
Politician - I'll give you that one.
Idiot - I suppose you're right, they dished out Nobel Prizes for Literature like sweeties in the '50s.
You made four statements, of which three are complete rubbish, whilst failing to refute my original point. Doesn't that bother you?
Patrick
Patrick - Yes I think he was undeserving, he was an upper class bully and got where he did because of his position in society, he was an idiot whom people covered up for.
His form of corruption was to gain high office and privilege by the back door, he's not unique in that, look at Tory history it's a form of corruption.
Your point about his Nobel prize is interesting, how did he manage it ? Could they have been swayed by his great fame ? The prestige for them as well as him ? He wouldn't hire a ghost surely, he's too noble for that eh.
Think about this Patrick before going overboard about the Nobel Prize, a certain Mr. Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize. You couldn't make it up, could you ?
Your accusation of racism directed at Mandela and Tambo is risible.
Councillor,
His form of corruption was to gain high office and privilege by the back door,
I thought he gained it by General Election?
The prestige for them as well as him ? He wouldn't hire a ghost surely, he's too noble for that eh.
You think the Nobel Institute is lacking in prestige? And do you seriously think a ghost writer would let someone walk off with his Prize?
a certain Mr. Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize.
Yes, for negotiating a ceasefire. Which the Communists promptly broke. Fancy that, eh?
Your accusation of racism directed at Mandela and Tambo is risible.
Refute it, then. Seriously, if I went to Tianamen Square and remarked that it would be nice if they put up a statue of whitey, would you not consider that racist, imperialist, expansionist, etc. etc?
Patrick
Councillor
"Mandela isn't on record as condemning other wicked leaders either"
You make my point about this charlatan quite nicely - thank you.
Ref your 'non-combatant' dig - you're wrong. To quote Frank Spencer " I have worn the Queen's trousers."
How dare you call Churchill an "undeserving corrput politician"? Who the hell do you think you are?
Councillor, a few points:
Who is/was Ian Hamilton?
Labour's sleaze over the past decade far outweighs anything practiced by the Conservatives.
Smuts was opposed to apartheid.
Does Churchill upset you because he did not like Stalin, a man who rivalled Hitler in terms of sheer inhumanity?
Byeck and others:
Mandela has often condemned Mugabe, and started doing so years ago:
http://www.namibian.com.na/Netstories/2000/May/Africa/007A98DA73.html
oftentimes individuals of note are honored by putting them on a nation's currency...and the idea of spending some mandelas sounds pretty good to me.
Terry Nelson did plot to blow stuff up, check out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour
/documentaries/storyville
/mandela.shtml
Therefore that makes him a criminal and a terrorist, just like the imperialists whos statues fill the square.
Terry getting off track but that statue of Nelson is awful, sorry but it really doesn't look like him(much) or do the man justice.
Hell it reminds me of Han Solo when he was frozen in Carbonite.
Rights or wrongs about if he deserved a statue or not aside here, it really does him no justice.
check out:
http://www.thegreenhead.com/
2005/04/lego-life-size-han-solo
-frozen-in.php
Councillor
Google 'Hunyani Disaster' and then tell me again why you find the shooting down of a civil aircraft and the abuse and murder of eighteen survivors a subject for sarcasm.
You might also Google 'zimbabwe+5th brigade' to find out what Mugabe did to his own people in Matabeleland.
Patrick - you are trying to muddy the water, he (Churchill) became famous because of nepotism. If he had not come from that background he would have been a nonentity.
I didn't say the Nobel prize lacked prestige, only that in the case of Churchill and Kissinger they got it wrong, I don't know how they managed to pick this pair, I think they are tarnished by these two, maybe there are more, I will check.
JFK, from a nice family too, got a Pullitzer prize for 'Profiles in Courage' and there were and still are strong accusations that he didn't write it, so put aside your synthetic rage this type of thing is not new.
Kissinger is I M O one of the worst political gangsters ever to reach high office and I'm delighted to see you standing up for him.
Your accusation of racism against Mandela and Tambo is still risible, people who read what you have said about them can make their own minds up, they can also get a glimpse at the kind of people who are out there.
Byeck - It's not that difficult to find someone that someone else didn't condemn, Mother Theresa didn't condemn evil rulers either therefore etc.
'Non Combatant' ? you seem to be getting mixed up here, are you a non combatant or not ? If you are an ex wearer of the trousers then I will rephrase it for you, there is no fury like a non combatant who is an ex soldier, they are by far the worst, great at killing people with their mouths.
marcus maclean - you know who I am, and I dare because that's what he was.
Rumbold - Ian Hamilton ex Tory MP, disgraced and now a figure of fun and contempt.
The conservatives are the most corrupt political organisation in history.
Smutts was not opposed to Apartheid he just wasn't as rabid as some of his colleagues.
fake consultant - maybe you stuff them into a 'Hamilton' to keep them safe.
Anon - I suspect that you have heard this saying ' one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' Mandela was the latter.
I have never claimed that Mandela did not blow up stuff. He did not target people though which certainly makes him different from many people, me included.
Had I been a black S.A. under Apartheid and, had I been able to stop my hand shaking I would not have hesitated.
Anon - It's in the eye of the beholder isn't it - Churchill described a painting or statue of himself (can't remember which) as making him look as if he 'was straining at a stool'
Byeck - does this post mean that we are all to start taking things seriously now, you seem to have judged something to be in bad taste, I suppose we should all bow to your superior knowledge of bad taste.
It was common knowledge to everyone in Britain that at the time of the first world war the Germans killed and ate babies, without salt ! Some things never change ' the pen is indeed mightier than the sword'
Councillor:
Are you sure that you are not thinking of Neil Hamilton? I have never heard of Ian Hamilton and cannot find anything out about him.
Councillor
18 plane crash survivors murdered and Heaven knows how many Matabele slaughtered and you dismiss it as a lapse in taste???
I rest my case.
Rumbold - Mandela had a pop at Mugabe in 2000 in an African newspaper and nothing since?
Again, I rest my case.
Rumbold - correct I really should treat you more seriously you're obviously very bright.
byeck - as I said synthetic rage.
Councillor, I know you're the person who constantly refers to "Ian Hamilton", when the man's name is Neil.
marcus maclean - yes indeed a triumph for you, he is of course Neil Hamilton - a Tory crook leading back to Churchill and further.
Hi again, Terry
'The conservatives are the most corrupt political organisation in history.'
'It was common knowledge to everyone in Britain that at the time of the first world war the Germans killed and ate babies, without salt ! Some things never change '
I see that you're as spot on as ever. Rubbish written then, rubbish written now......
he (Churchill) became famous because of nepotism. If he had not come from that background he would have been a nonentity.
If he'd died at 60 he'd have been a nonentity too. Are you seriously suggesting that it took half-a-century for the old school tie to finally pay off?
I didn't say the Nobel prize lacked prestige, only that in the case of Churchill and Kissinger they got it wrong,
They do sometimes get it wrong. Jocelyn Burnell springs to mind. But I doubt if they ever get it so wrong as to give one to an idiot, which was your initial argument.
Your accusation of racism against Mandela and Tambo is still risible,
So prove it wrong then. Just saying something is risible doesn't necessarily make it so, unless you can muster the facts to prove it.
Patrick
Terry,
Sorry to be off-topic but what has happened to the new training ground that Labour promised at Penilee and we were assured was a finalised deal after it was all announced in the Paisley Express.
Is it true that it wasn't a real deal and was only an election bribe.
Councillor:
"I really should treat you more seriously you're obviously very bright."
My sarcasm detector is on the blink at the moment so I shall take that compliment at face value. Though we mostly disagree, you do always endeavour to answer my points, so I have always felt that you take me seriously.
Byeck:
Mandela has criticised Mugabe a number of times, but I just chose to cite one source.
Scunnered - As always, I bow to your superior knowledge of rubbish.
Patrick - I've dealt with your accusation about Mandela and Tambo being racists I'm not going to dignify such crass stupidity by getting into an argument about it, let others make up their own minds.
'Old school tie' are you seriously suggesting that Churchill did not benefit from his background ? Does it help if I withdraw 'idiot' because he wasn't an idiot in the dictionary sense, you are using that literally because you can't defend him. Let me substitute 'thick charlatan' instead.
Don't worry too much Patrick about Churchill and his reputation or his like today, as long as there are pathetic cap doffing, forelock tugging people like you around they will do OK.
Anon - 'Penilee' ? Believe me you are much more than 'off topic' there was a planning meeting today chaired by the anti Penilee development warrior Cllr. Nicolson SNP - and with the SNP/LIB.DEM.as the new administration as well as having a majority on the planning board.
I don't know how to break this to you and I can hardly type for laughing but you are not going to like this, I don't know what to say, tell you what, check out what happened at the meeting, get yourself a cup of strong beef tea and sit down and check it out.
Enough laughter though, have you got the honesty to come back to me and tell the real truth about those who opposed our plans, what they have done to you and the other gullible people that they used, what they have done could hardly be planer, are you going to hide or speak out.
I've dealt with your accusation about Mandela and Tambo being racists .
No, you havn't. You've said it's risible, but you havn't actually put forward a counter-argument. If you don't show up for the game you forfeit the match, even if you're shouting that the other team are too crap to play against.
'Old school tie' are you seriously suggesting that Churchill did not benefit from his background ?
Of course he did, but it didn't get him to No. 10. It didn't get him a Nobel Prize. It didn't give him his prescience or oratory. There were plently of people even more privledged than he, but we've never heard of them.
you are using that literally because you can't defend him
No, I'm using it because it's what you said. Do you want me to take on "What Terry didn't say but really meant" next time?
Patrick
Patrick - when someone makes a statement which I consider to be so stupid I don't consider that I should have to argue with him, that's what I'm doing, I'm happy to let others judge.
Churchill ? without his background, there would have been no No. 10 and no Nobel Prize that's the very point.
Really Patrick if you are saying that when I describe you or Churchill as a babbling fool I mean it literally then what next ? I think you should think again about that, and stop being a half wit, oops, I didn't really mean that litera !
Councillor
Your pardon, this is for Rumbold.
Rumbold, I've problems enough with the Councillor, but here goes: 'Mandela cricised Mugabe in 2000 but since his retirement has remained silent.' Wikepedia. (Mandela said "Everyone knows who I'm talking about, he DID NOT criticise Mugabe by name in this article which appeared in a local African paper)
Give me an example of any Mandela criticism of Mugabe (a)since 2000 and (b) that actually names the man
Terry,
Your jump to the defence leads me to believe that you know more than us Joe public St Mirren supporters.
It was merely a question on a topic that seems to have died since the election. I was always very wary of the deal Labour put forward as they have not done a great deal for the Saints in the past (indeed nothing but hindrance) and it seemed strange that in a run up to the election they were opening the doors and throwing money at us
It appears that we were lied to (from both sides) that a deal had been struck and now eveything has went very quiet.
If a deal had been made as everyone had said, then why are the Saints not training in Penilee, or do you not want to admit that your party told the people of Paisley a load of lies.
Saints fans and Labour supporters alike can no longer believe the words of our Labour councillors or team management
Shame on you all!
Its maybe a good thing that you didn't get back in this time.
as to this comment:
"maybe you stuff them into a 'Hamilton' to keep them safe."
clearly we can't stuff them in "burrs"...suggesting the victors do get the spoils.
Re. the Nobel Prize for Literature.
Would the esteemed Councillor be so good as to explain exactly what it is about Churchill's History of the English Speaking Peoples that makes it unworthy of the prize?
As I understand it, in the learned opinion of Mr. Kelly, his major objection is "Churchill wrote it, therefore it's bad". Perhaps he could flesh out his critique a little and show us, whose intellect obviously pales in comparison to his own, exactly where we're going wrong.
Byeck:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/africa/09/29/safrica.mandela.reut/index.html
(Start near the end)
Mandela started seriously criticising Mugabe before many others did. As pointed out, after his retirement he has said very little on any political issues; perhaps he feels that is the job of politicans. I disagree with that stance, but he has clearly come out against Mugabe.
anon - I assumed that you were one of those who campaigned against our plans for Penilee.
We (Labour) put these proposals forward, the SNP and the Lib. Dems. Campaigned against them.
You say Labour have never done anything for the saints in the past - you are clearly woefully ignorant of the past.
Who was it 15 yrs ago who gave St. Mirren a sizable loan of £300,000 with no interest, still not paid, with interest it would now be approx. £500,000 and Labour didn't demand it back.
When St. Mirren applied for planning permission to relocate and sell their ground to a supermarket chain it was the Labour dominated Planning board who granted it, this was proposed by me, against my own party's policy on the matter.
The liars were the Lib. Dems. And the SNP who opposed it and at the planning meeting yesterday agreed to pass it so it's still on.
I don't know who you think lied to you but I know we didn't, remember it was the Lib. Dems. and the SNP who opposed our plans for Penilee.
You should withdraw those anti Labour remarks but I doubt if you will.
Re the St Mirren deal in the paper - I came across information from the Renfrewhsire planning department that made all that "we are building a training ground here" talk to be a joke.
You mention the ground relocation? What else was approved besides a stadium? A training facility perhaps?
The Labour group presented what was an initial cool enquiry as a done deal but only if Buddies backed Labour in the election. Problem was with civil servants talking to real fans on the internet word soon spread about this deceit and obviously the plan worked out well for you didn't it?
You attempted to treat the people like fools and they showed you the door. The amazing thing is you are still defending it. Never reinforce failure.
fake consultant - clarify please 'burrs'
1/ I didn't say it wasn't worthy because I'm not in a position to say that, I wonder if you can guess why ? No what I said and am happy to repeat along with some more is :-
Did he write it ? Could it have been awarded because of his prestige ? Did the committee see it as a way of gaining prestige for them ? Did he really lead the conduct of the war ? Did he really make the big decisions ? Was he ever sober enough to make a decision ? Was he really more of a much loved war time figurehead than a military leader ?
And last but not least do you never get embarrassed tugging your forelock ?
RFS - is it not about time you gave your head a shake about Penilee - I can't follow this post at all.
We (Labour) put forward proposals for Penilee, the Lib.Dems. And the SNP opposed those proposals.
They, (the Lib. Dems. and the SNP) formed a governing pact and, at yesterday's planning meeting they did a 'u' turn and passed our (Labour) proposals for Penilee unopposed.
Is this difficult to follow ? Who are the liars ? Who told the people one thing in opposition and promptly did the opposite in power ?
Have you heard of the Manse Crs. Affair ? We (Labour) proposed the sale of a parcel of land at Manse Crs. Houston, this proved unpopular with the good people of Houston who opposed us.
This opposition was galvanised by the support of the SNP i.e. Vote for us and we will not sell the land, approx 2 months in power and guess what ? Come on try hard, yes that's right they sold it, so come on just for once in your twisted existence RFS who are the liars ?
>Did he write it ?<
Frankly, I've never heard anyone suggest otherwise. If you actually read the work - rather than, say, making stuff up - you'd see that, stylistically, it's completely within the realms of what one would expect from a writer of his background and that period; it's also, in terms of its orthography and syntax, entirely in keeping with what Churchill's other spoken and written works.
The idea that he employed a "ghost writer" is anachronistic, at best, and betrays a severe misunderstanding of literary culture in the first half of the twentieth century.
>Was he really more of a much loved war time figurehead than a military leader ?<
Neither here nor there when discussing the merits of his literary product.
>And last but not least do you never get embarrassed tugging your forelock ?<
So, to get this straight, I say (having actually read the work in question - something you admit not to having done) that it has literary merit; you squawk about forelock-tugging. That's some powerful argumentation you have there, my friend. Kudos to you - Demosthenes and Cicero pale before your dialectic and oratorical brilliance.
Let me see if I can channel your skills for a minute: you hate the warmonger Churchill. Churchill hated Hitler. Therefore you are a Nazi. When you said you were a socialist, you obviously meant national socialist.
That's how you argue, right, Tezza?
Terry,
Your comments regarding Penilee are so far removed from the current situation that it is laughable.
St Mirren would also probably be creasing themselves at your comments.
You forget that you are no longer in power and therefore you have no credibility (did you ever have any?) and no longer have any say! (thank god!)
I await the future proposals that may be made regarding these very important issues that your previous fellow councillors treated with such disrespect to the local community that it affected
Terry,
you have got this wrong.
Nobody passed anything of the sort yesterday regarding Penilee.
You are clearly an incompetent who is not worthy of any office.
Please resign Terry
You know it's the right thing to do
Terry,
Perhaps you should this morning's Paisley Daily Express.
It has an article with the leaders of he SNP/LIB DEM coalition standing outside Penilee Pavillion which reads as follows
1. St Mirren will not be going into Penilee - a reversal of this previous Labour plan which incensed a lot of local people
2. The regeneration of Penilee playing fields an Pavilion will go ahead but for the benefit of the community.
3. The sell-off of Seedhill Playing Fields for private housing proposed by the previous Labour council will not go ahead.
Instead, Seedhill will be modernised with the upgrading of 3 grass pitches and the provision of one synthetic pitch and 3 five a side pitches. Wow!
4. St Mirren will still be accomodated with the new development (currently under way I believe) at Ralston Playing Fields where they will have 2 grass pitches, a blaes pitch, a pavilion, changing rooms and parking. They will also be offered a 20 year lease as opposed to the previous offer of 10 years.
It seems that the new coalition have not been sitting on their backsides since they got in.
In view of this announcement it was seem that most of your previous comments on this thread are a load of mince.
Incidentally, can you explain to me why the Labour council gave a loan to St Mirren of £300,000 from taxpayers money fifteen years ago and never asked for it back or charged any interest?
looking forward to your reply
I'm happy to let others judge.
Fair enough, if you have no response. A pity.
PS, before you get too carried away about Abraham Lincoln, you might be interested in this snippet...
I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races--that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. - Abraham Lincoln.
Patrick
Anon - Did he write it ? So, you reckon that because Churchill spoke and wrote like that I can't have a case, well that's that then isn't it, he was beyond imitation, no one could possibly been clever enough to do that could they. Naive doesn't begin to describe that assertion.
'A suggestion of ghost writers at that time means I have a misunderstanding of literary culture at that time' an arrogant pompous remark, I'm not surprised you're a fan of Churchill. Did Shakespeare really write those plays, have you ever heard that argument ?
I didn't say that his war time exploits had anything to do with his literary efforts did I ? Why are you saying that ? Is it a mistake or are you being disingenuous ? More of the old crooks characteristics eh.
Only an arrogant snob could write that second last para. Someone like you know who in fact, it shows frustration and a weak argument.
And the last para. No, that's not how I argue, Churchill would have treated any enemy the same way as he treated Hitler, he was completely amoral, the game meant everything, the cause meant nothing.
He would have been just as happy fighting to enslave people as to free them, just as long as it was great war with lots of glory for him, he saw himself as Henry V he loved it.
anon - re. Penilee/Ralston you are clearly in aposition where you can't accept that you have been conned.
The labour proposals were better and cheaper - we will all pay for this .
anon, another one, so that's the argument is it ? not only is Penilee involved but so is Ralston Seedhill and Millarston which they won't sell off will they ? remember their opposition to that, wait and see.
Remember the open ground at Manse Crs. Houston ? 'Labour's proposals to sell this land are an outrage' said the SNP vote for us and we will not sell it off, said the SNP/ LIb.Dems.
Two months later they are in power and - what do you think they did with the land at Manse Crs. ? Why don't you go out to Manse Crs. and around Houston and ask the people what they think about the new SNP / Lib. Dem. rulers, I dare you.
They have conned the people and the people will pay for it, unfortunately some, like you, will never find the bottle to admit that you have been made a fool of.
Alex - This is pathetic, you are either not able to see or too embarrassed to admit that you and the others who bought the SNP/Lib.DEms. Campaign have been conned. Do you think they will sell Millarston ? Despite saying Labour were a disgrace for suggesting it ? How will they get the running track intp this development at Seedhill ? This running track was sacrosanct, remember ? Go and find about the St. Mirren loan for yourself.
They haven't been sitting on their backsides right enough they have done the following:-
Raised the costs of After School Care for our poorest families.
Raised the costs of hiring Council halls - that includes special hires for those less well off than you and me, the elderly, the disabled etc.
Sold the open land at Manse Crs. Houston after campaigning to oppose the sale i.e. 'Vote for us and the land will be safe' two months into power and they sold it !
There will be a lot more like that to come, if I worked for Renfrewshire Council I would be worried about my job. You stand by them Alex, you clearly deserve each other.
Terry,
Perhaps if Labour hadn't given away free money to St Mirren without asking for it back that would now be worth around £500,000 maybe some cost increaes could be avoided.
This is just one dodgy deal that we have found out about - but how many more are there?
Interesting that you refuse to answer the question as to why St Mirren were given the money and why they didn't have to pay it back.
Perhaps more businesses should be encouraged to enrol in this free money scheme invented by Labour.
In reality, somebody should be investigating this.
>Did he write it ? So, you reckon that because Churchill spoke and wrote like that I can't have a case,<
I reckon that there is no stylistic and orthographical evidence to support your contention. If you have evidence, produce it - otherwise you might as well claim the Martians wrote it.
>'A suggestion of ghost writers at that time means I have a misunderstanding of literary culture at that time' an arrogant pompous remark,<
No. A fact. Contemporary upper class culture of the time demanded that men, particularly those with a poltical career in mind (whether in Commons or Lords), should have a very strong grasp of oratorical and literary science. When Churchill wrote the HotESP, he was consciously imitating the classicising historians like Thucydides - something that he and others educated in the British public school system of the time were taught was the height of civilised political culture.
Frankly, given his culture and background, it would have been shocking if Churchill *hadn't* produced a work like the HotESP.
>I'm not surprised you're a fan of Churchill.<
Not sure what you mean be "fan of Churchill". I recognise the literary and historiographical import of the HotESP but als that, as a leader, Churchill was flawed to say the least.
We call this 'nuance', Terry. You should try it some time. Just because you see flaws in someone, it doesn't make them Satan.
>Did Shakespeare really write those plays, have you ever heard that argument ?<
Indeed and I fail to see how it's germaine to this argument. (I am also largely uninterested, from a scholarly perspective, in Shakespeare.)
>I didn't say that his war time exploits had anything to do with his literary efforts did I ?<
Yes, I'm afraid you did.
>Why are you saying that ? Is it a mistake or are you being disingenuous ? More of the old crooks characteristics eh.<
There is no emoticon to describe my feelings right now. Picture me with a little smile on my face, nodding my head gently and swaying a little in my swivel-ly chair.
>Only an arrogant snob could write that second last para.<
Born in Pollok, educated at Bellahouston Academy, my friend, with a binman for a dad. Being born into a working class family doesn't mean one must be illiterate, ineloquent and uninformed - despite what you believe.
> Someone like you know who in fact, it shows frustration and a weak argument.<
No, it shows my disdain for your straw man arguments, borderline illiteracy and bizarre conspiracy theories.
If you want to be treated like a grown-up, you have to act like one, homes.
>And the last para. No, that's not how I argue,<
It really, really is. Put a poll on the front of your blog and ask people.
>Churchill would have treated any enemy the same way as he treated Hitler,<
I'm not sure what you mean by "the same way he treated Hitler" so I'll refrain from comment.
>he was completely amoral,<
An entirely subjective statement. As such, it is utterly meaningless.
> the game meant everything, the cause meant nothing.<
Ditto for subjectivity. However, clearly, from his speeches and writings (inc. the personal letters) from the early 1930s, it is clear that Churchill saw National Socialism as something truly, utterly evil - worse than Stalin's Communism and worse than Mussolini's Fascism.
One might debate how correct his evaluation was (although I do not think it would be a profitable course), but what is unarguable is that Churchill absolutely believed it
>He would have been just as happy fighting to enslave people as to free them,<
I assume you're referring to his support for empire. If so, then, yes, Churchill had a (very common, at that time) racist disdain for non-whites. He did not feel they were fit to govern themselves and he generally saw empire as a vehicle not only for British power and prestige but also for the enlightenment of "the natives". This is all true. And it doesn't change the fact that he hated the Nazis - just as the evils perpetrated by Stalin and the Soviets doesn't change the fact that they are largely responsible for the destruction of Nazism.
Remember what I said about nuance? Bad people can do good things. And good people can do bad things. Trying to paint history in terms of "Goodies vs. Baddies" is really something you should leave behind when you go to secondary school.
>just as long as it was great war with lots of glory for him, he saw himself as Henry V he loved it.<
Source? Proof? Evidence? Making something up does not make it so. Let me demonstrate: "Terry Kelly dreams of being a ballet dancer. His every waking hour, he fantasises about twirling about on stage to the strains of Swan Lake".
I can say it, Terry, but that does not make it so. (Not least because we all know you actually fantasise about being Stalin.)
Now, who wants to bet that Tezza gets the wrong end of the stick and embarrasses himself again?
Patrick - I don't understand your ref. To Lincoln I was never carried away by him and I was always aware of his views, I don't remember saying anything about him on my blog.
I've never read that and it is strong stuff in 2007 but not then - he acted out of expediency he was a man of his time and what he's saying here wouldn't have raised any eyebrows.
Go forward though to the 19 60's and a young Senator and his wife arrive in Washington for the first time - they come from money and can afford to buy a grand house in the expensive suburb of Georgetown Washington. But first a legal document has to be signed which states that the buyer will never sell the house on to a black person.
The young Senator signs without demur, his name ? You've probably guessed, it was of course John Fitzgerald Kennedy, now that ! is different from Lincoln.
He was a crook and a gangster from a crooked family of gangsters, racism or any other 'ism' would not get in his way.
If Hilary gets elected and serves two terms the presidency of the USA will have been held for almost 30 yrs by two families !
Yup, bringing democracy to the world eh?
Terry,
In one breath you hail the Labour council for giving away what is tantamount to half a million pounds to a local football club and in the other you are criticising the new administration for having to raise some costs. Where do you get your logic.
The truth is that today's announcement in the PDE is a massive embarrasment to Labour who had agreed to sell of the Seedhill land to a private developer, completely against the wishes of the surrounding residents.
Not listening to the wishes of the people of whom they represent is what caused Labour to be kicked out and in the case of Seedhill is why your daughter lost her position as councillor.
The council will face some tough decisions as they cannot possibly undo all the poor decisions of the previous administration overnight.
That said, they surely must be congratulated on this absolutely marvellous announcement made today that will see the regeneration of Penilee Playing Fields and Seedhill Playing Fields (areas that Labour have ignored and left to deteriorate) into top class Sporting facilities for use by the local schools and community.
In addition they have still managed to strike an agreement that suits St Mirren and gives them a first class training facility with a 3 pitches a pavilion, changing facilities and car parking.
There will clearly be a bad taste in the mouths of Labour councillors as they did not have the foresight and ability to come up with such a plan.
I ask you though Terry, please spit out the sour grapes and put your hands together to applaud this fantastic development that will be a massive asset particularly to the young people of Paisley who are the town's future
Anon - You had me fooled for a minute I was wary of those big words but this, it's you who is the straw man, all of this to back up your previous arguments, nothing new, nothing original, we have to plough through ¾ of this before we find some sense, that is where you introduce the word subjective, it shines out like a pearl in a dustbin.
It's much more simple than you would like to have us believe isn't it ? In my subjective opinion Churchill was not capable of being the man that sycophants like you portray him as. The Shakespeare ref. Is germane because it highlights that literary fraud is as old as time.
I asked you why you said that I said, that his military exploits had something to do with his literary efforts, why have you not answered that?
'Born in Pollock, your pals bin man dad' - luxury - you condescending snob.
'From his speeches and writings Churchill saw National Socialism as evil, I don't buy that, he saw it as a threat to Britain, he would have quite happily sat in any government whatever hue, with the proviso that he would be important, 'it is unarguable that Churchill believed it' stunning arrogance again.
You finally get something right ' because I say something does not make it right' physician heal thyself.
Of course I dream of being Stalin and you are as smart as you think you are aren't you.
Your anonymity and your verbosity are in danger of getting you cut off, if you must write back please accept it that we are all suitably impressed by the big words and give us a break, cut it down.
Anon - I've already dealt with this three times look up the comments.
You and the people who support this are being conned, you and me and the rest of us will have to pay dearly for this and it will be shown that we put forward a better deal.
Or maybe we should accept that the SNP / Lib. Dems. Are just smarter than us, they have done something we couldn't do, that's just silly, we could have proposed something twice as big as this but unlike the present administration we looked at the future for the whole town not a short term gain which, as I said, we will pay for.
Millarston will be sold - the sacrosanct running track seems to have gone and we will see job losses before the next election.
>You had me fooled for a minute I was wary of those big words<
Which is a damning admission in an elected representative who daily deals with law.
>but this, it's you who is the straw man, all of this to back up your previous arguments<
I made no arguments. I stated pure objective fact and requested evidence for *your* assertions. You have provided none.
>It's much more simple than you would like to have us believe isn't it ?<
Well, you're simple, I grant you.
>In my subjective opinion Churchill was not capable of being the man that sycophants like you portray him as.<
When I have actually said anything positive about Churchill? Other than recognising the historiographical and literary worth of the HotESP, I have expressed ZERO opinion about Churchill. Are you truly so subnormal that you cannot see that?
>The Shakespeare ref. Is germane because it highlights that literary fraud is as old as time.<
The Shakespeare ref. is irrelevant because we are not discussing Shakespeare - even assuming that misassignment of authorship was the result of fraud rather than error or literary device.
>I asked you why you said that I said, that his military exploits had something to do with his literary efforts, why have you not answered that?<
I did. Re-read my post. You stated explicitly that the HotESP was unworthy because he was a bad military leader. You said it.
>'Born in Pollock, your pals bin man dad' - luxury - you condescending snob.<
This isn't even the English language any more. And, for the love of God, what kind of socialist says that education makes you a snob? What kind of socialist hates the working classes so much that he wants them all to be illiterate? Terry Kelly, of course.
>I don't buy that, he saw it as a threat to Britain,<
Yes, he saw Nazism as a threat to Britain and he also said, in the private letters and public speeches, esp. from 1936 onwards, that Nazism was genuinely evil. The sources are out there - this is easy to check, Tezza. Just crack a book. READ THE SOURCES.
> he would have quite happily sat in any government whatever hue, with the proviso that he would be important<
No doubt. But when did I say otherwise? And, anyway, are you really saying that, because he switched parties, he couldn't hate Nazism? If you are saying that, you must explain why. Your logic is, well, illogical.
>it is unarguable that Churchill believed it' stunning arrogance again.<
Yes, the kind of arrogance caused by, y'know, *reading* the sources instead of making stuff up. I am begging you, Tezza, to take some of the taxpayer's money that you get paid and buy some books. PLEASE.
>Of course I dream of being Stalin and you are as smart as you think you are aren't you.<
I don't know if the problem is with the grammar or the punctuation, but I really cannot grasp what you mean.
>Your anonymity<
I am not registering for sodding blogger just so I can post the occasional comment about subjects in which I happen to be expert.
> and your verbosity<
Use monosyllables only or Tezza won't understand.
>are in danger of getting you cut off,<
So much for free speech, eh? I have used no abusive language (unlike you) and have not sworn and you're threatening to censor me.
>if you must write back please accept it that we are all suitably impressed by the big words and give us a break, cut it down.<
Yes, because I sit in my office dreaming of impressing borderline illiterate socialist dinosaurs(!). I use the words and the grammar that are most correct for the subject. I refuse to write like a mental deficient just because it's on the internet.
Mr Kelly
You have stated that the Labour council Loaned St Mirren £300000 and that in todays cost that would be £500000.
You also stated that they never asked for it back
Can I ask why?
Was this not public money?
Surely after a few years the council must have been obliged to recover this money for the tax payer.
I think your statement regarding this has uncovered something malignant in the previous council that needs to be looked into
Patrick - I don't understand your ref. To Lincoln I was never carried away by him
I just thought you compared him favourably to the other residents of Parliament Square, so I was pointing out that his views were not as pure as you suggested. He certainly had a lower opinion of black people than Churchill.
he was a man of his time
He was, but I don't see what that has to do with anything. What is wrong now was wrong then.
If Hilary gets elected and serves two terms the presidency of the USA will have been held for almost 30 yrs by two families !
Yup, bringing democracy to the world eh?
And what's wrong with that, if that's how people vote? Anyway, it appears you would exclude from high office those with wealth (WSC), those with politically-active parents (JFK)... so who's next Terry? The Kulaks, perhaps?
Patrick
Anon - or should I call you Mr. Angry or self declared 'expert' is that official ? Are you officially an expert on something ? modest as well, I feel quite humble.
The 'damning admission was a joke, a gentle laugh at your efforts to impress. You continue to use 'pure objective fact' while poor me, I use subjective opinion, I'm humbled again.
I'm also simple, subnormal, I hate the working Class, I want them all to be illiterate, I'm illogical, making stuff up, I should use some of the tax payers money to buy some books, I can only understand monosyllables, I'm a borderline illiterate socialist dinosaur and I'm a mental deficient.
I'm really glad that you do not, as you say 'use abusive language' I've got to post this it's priceless, you just couldn't make this up.
I'm almost afraid to say this now but, it's still a bit too long don't you think ?
Anonymous crusader - use the 'sword of truth and the good old British shield of fair play' and go for it. You could become famous, you could become a sleaze buster, FINAAAL - FINAAAL 'solid honest citizen Walter Mitty gets corrupt councillors put in prison' just imagine the headlines.
We have never asked for it back, it's still on loan, but if you think that there is something untoward, 'something malignant' then go for it, would it be more accurate to say that you are hoping that there is 'something malignant' ?
Patrick - I don't remember comparing Lincoln favourably with anyone, not something I would normally do, his opinion as seen in that piece certainly seems worse than Churchill's but it was a considerable time before him making Churchill no better.
Come on now Patrick you are usually better than this 'I would exclude those with wealth and those with political active parents' I'll take pity on you and leave that.
No comment on the blessed JFK's racism which wasn't that long ago ?
I don't remember comparing Lincoln favourably with anyone,
Sorry, but you said Abraham Lincoln, Jan Smutts and Churchill, a president who freed the slaves, a S.A. Prime Minister who championed slavery and a British Prime Minister who would have embraced Apartheid given the chance, although in fairness you didn't lend much weight to the statement.
it was a considerable time before him making Churchill no better.
So, I take it your definition of right and wrong varies with time? You probably approve of the Salem witch-hunts then, given that they were only acting in keeping with the mores of their period.
No comment on the blessed JFK's racism which wasn't that long ago ?
I didn't know he did that, but if he did, I don't approve. However, we must not forget that he was also a great statesman. A bit like Lincoln.
Patrick
Oh touchy touchy!
Looks like a nerves been hit Terry!
Anyway, I've forwarded a copy of your comments to the head of the council and cc. to the leader of the Labour party on behalf of anon to ask for an explanation.
I'll post it here if I get a reply.
Alex - You haven't as you say found out about it, I told you about it. There are many many more, go for it.
'Why they were given it ? Go and do the research.
Why they didn't have to pay it back' ? They do have to give it back.
''scheme invented by Labour' ? Wrong again Alex, not very good at this are you ? Go and see who supported it.
'Somebody should investigate this' ? It's in the public domain and always has been, get a grip Alex and stop making a fool of yourself.
"No comment on the blessed JFK's racism which wasn't that long ago ?"
WHAT? WHAT? JFK? JFK who introduced the Civil Rights Act and paved the way for the repead of the Jim Crow Laws? A racist? Are you mad? What next - Churchill a Nazi? Lincoln a slave-trader? Reagan a Communist?
Patrick - It was a deliberately provocative statement, Lincoln's freeing of the slaves was neither here nor there, I can assure you I knew about his views.
What's 'right and wrong varies with time' ? That's not very clever by your standards, so I'll spell it out, the time that something takes place and 'the mores' at the time helps to put it in to context it does not make it right - Miller made that point with the 'crucible' the Salem witches were burned and it was accepted because that is what happened at that time - Mc Carthy hadn't that excuse, as Miller pointed out.
JFK ? Wow, you don't approve, that will scare them eh ! Lincoln, despite his cynicism qualifies as a Statesman but, don't try to sneek in Kennedy, he was a crook from a family of gangsters and rum runners, he stood for nothing and cared about nothing.
Being shot has put him on a pedestal, he would have been found out, he was a wrong un like the rest of them.
sleaze crusader - you go for it batman - you are doing a great job cleaning up society - da da da da da
Anon - What you have to remember is that Kennedy owed allegiance to no one, no cause drove him, if getting rid of the Civil Rights Act had been more popular he would have done that without hesitation.
You are overlooking the fact that dishonesty and corruption were deeply ingrained in him.
Churchill ? See above for Kennedy.
Lincoln ? Ditto.
Reagan ? You have a good point here, old Ronnie Raygun was told at an early age that Communism was evil and disliked by the Lord Jesus and he never wavered. Mind you he also believed that you could tell a lot about a man by watching the way he ate jelly beans.
"Reagan ? You have a good point here, old Ronnie Raygun was told at an early age that Communism was evil and disliked by the Lord Jesus and he never wavered."
He then went out, destroyed it and freed half the world from its slavery. See what someone can do when they are motivated and believe in their cause?
I really liked that "Raygun" thing. Very witty.
What's 'right and wrong varies with time' ? That's not very clever by your standards
You said it, not me. Churchill was no better because he came later in history, remember?
JFK ? Wow, you don't approve, that will scare them eh !
Well, what else do you want me to say? That he should have been sent to the salt-mines or something?
he stood for nothing and cared about nothing.
Try going to Berlin and telling them that.
Patrick
Byeck - Is this the Mormon thing, I'm not aware of any 'wee problem' what do you mean ?
Prison population ? It seems I was wrong then.
You I think said 50% of the prison population would go if we expelled people who were not born here, which using your figures is 20,000 out of 80,000 ! unlike you I'm hopeless at maths, this also assumes that all the foreign nationals and all ethnic minorities in prison can't speak English ! a big assumption surely or put another way 'a lie' a lie on which you are prepared 'to rest your case'
Random insult ? no it wasn't, you are a racist moron.
RFS - Reports of the death of communism are premature, capitalism will destroy itself first.
Just think what old Raygun could have done if he'd had a brain.
Patrick - Churchill ? I fear you are being deliberately obtuse here.
Kennedy - I've heard you use stronger language for less, just a wee bit of bias eh ?
Berlin was a good sound bite from a shallow crook.
Councillor,
For someone who wasn't aware he had a Mormon problem, you caught on fast.
And a teensy correction: I didn't say 20,000 Ethnics and Foreign Nationals couldn't speak English - I said English wasn't their first language. (Excluding the 1000 or so Americans & Anzacs H.M.P. are currently hosting)
Also, a small apology: you are, of course correct 20,000 isn't half of 80,000, so shipping them out would only reduce the chance of them re-offending in the UK by 25% rather than 50%.
I still think it's worth going for.
Councillor,
Allow me to rephrase a question from many posts ago...
Do you consider that Mandela has done all that he can to resolve the Mugabe crisis?
Reports of the death of communism are premature, capitalism will destroy itself first.
You think? If that is inevitable, and not just wishful thinking, I'm sure you will have no trouble in naming for me an established capitalist democracy which has already imploded from within.
I mean, I certainly can't name any imploded communist societies. Except Russia. And Mongolia. And East Germany. And crikey, I could go on all day...
Patrick
"Reports of the death of communism are premature"
How many communist countries were there in 1975? How many are there today?
I honestly don't know the exact numbers but I can take a guess at the trend. It must be hard being ideologically bound to defend a system that systematically butchered so much of the population.
Anon - I do realise that trying to land a blow on one of the genuine giants of our times is frustrating but you aren't even remotely close here, I and others have answered this before.
I do however find it fascinating that people like you are so consumed by what I can only assume is race hatred that you still try this stuff. - you are a nasty piece of work but, still attacking Mandela ? That's some amount of hatred, that's powerful, powerful enough to unhinge a person.
Patrick - Clumsy and simplistic, South Africa - Argentina - Chile - Cuba but that's not really my point.
There is not one single capitalist country in the world which qualifies IMO as a decent society and the system stinks.
When the victims get the chance, and some day they will, there will be a whole lot of imploding going on and I think that's likely to happen before communism/socialism disappears.
Think Latin America - look at Brazil, America itself, millions below the poverty line in the worlds richest country, 47 million with no health care, hundreds of thousands homeless, millions in prison - crikey I could go on as well.
RFS - Which of us is 'ideologically bound to defend a system that systematically butchered so much of the population' see, that's how esay it is.
Is there any chance of you ever showing signs of maturity ?
Councillor,
I am afraid that you are getting me confused with someone else.
My question ('Do you consider that Mandela has done all that he can to resolve the Mugabe crisis?') was actually the first time I have ever posted anything to your blog. I am not the other(s?) who have posted anonymously.
As such, I don't feel that I deserve to be accused of racial hatred or attacking Mandela.
I was hoping to avoid the excitable exchanges that you seem to be having with other contributors.
Set against the charged atmosphere here I can perhaps understand your suspicion, but I am genuinely interested in your views on the question.
My question is not whether Mandela is a great man or not. My question is not whether Mandela has done good or harm to South Africa.
My question is simply whether you consider that Mandela has done all that he can to resolve the Mugabe crisis?
To avoid further confusion, and to give you an opportunity to extend a more cordial welcome to me, I will sign off... Mortimer
Mortimer - My apologies if I confused you with someone else - I have dealt with identical questions before and so have others to my blog.
Mandela as I understand it has condemned Mugabe before but I'm not sure what you mean by asking 'has he done enough' I find the question quite strange, almost as if you already have the answer, am I warm ?
Perhaps you could let me know what your opinion is, perhaps you could be a bit more open.
Councillor,
I don't already have the answer because my question was (is) about your opinion, not mine.
Turning now to my opinion...
I'm disappointed, and largely for many of the reasons you mention in your opening post.
Mandela has truly
earned his place in history. He has been uniquely placed to potentially make substantial
progress towards resolving the crisis.
Yet for reasons I cannot fathom he has not done so.
But enough about my opinion. Let's talk about yours.
Mortimer
Hang on Terry, I asked for an example of a capitalist democracy which imploded from within... and you come up with South Africa??? The same South Africa whose democratic record you've spent the past fortnight bewailing?
Crikey, Terry, even for you thats... breathtaking!
Patrick
mortimer - would it not be easier to just say what you are accusing Mandela of ?
I believe Mandela to be a great man - I regard Mugabe as a tyrant, (another one of ours) so, why can't you be more specific ?
Patrick - S.A. regarded itself as a capitalist democracy as did the others - I think you will find that there is no country anywhere that regards itself as undemocratic
I'm not aware of any place which says 'welcome to our beautiful dictatorship' we hope you enjoy your stay !
Patrick - S.A. regarded itself as a capitalist democracy as did the others - [Argentina - Chile - Cuba]
It doesn't really matter what these countries called themselves Terry, and I doubt if the Cubans would call themselves capitalist anyway, even if they had freedom of speech. No, I'm interested in what they really were.
As the saying goes, you can call a chair a table, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.
So, let's try again. Name me an actual, real, established capitalist democracy (using the words in the sense of the OED, not some third-world despot) which subsequently went on to fall apart.
Or, you could concede that it's perhaps a slightly more enduring system than totalitarianism after all.
Patrick
Councillor
No, it wouldn't be easier to just say what I am accusing Mandela of.
This is for two reasons. First, I am not accusing Mandela of anything. Secondly, it wouldn't help you to give an answer to my question.
My question was whether you believed that Mandela had done all that he could to resolve the Mugabe crisis. I know you think Mandela is a great man. But that doesn't answer my question. I also know you think Mugabe is a tyrant. But that doesn't answer my question either.
Perhaps I could helpfully start in a different way.
Question: Am I wrong in thinking that you are an intelligent man who has a respectable opinion on whether Mandela has done all that he can to resolve the Mugabe crisis?
Regards,
Mortimer
Patrick - This won't do, you asked me the question, I answered and because you didn't like the answer you are now saying you didn't mean countries like this.
Italy - collapsed into Fascism 1922 does that count ?
Let's try Germany, were they Capitalists ? Was it not raging capitalist inflation etc that caused that.
How about the great depression in America, what would have happened to America without the war ?
You seem ignorant of Chilean history, one of the oldest so called democracies in history. Collapsed into madness and guided on it's way by the maddest, maddest, maddest B-----d of them all, the late unlamented old 'Mad' Milton Friedman.
Councillor
"Mugabe....tyrant....one of ours?
I dont understand the 'one of ours.'
anon - Mandela ? Mortimer - you are clearly not telling the truth -
You say that you are not accusing Mandela of anything so, do you think Mandela has done all that he could to resolve the Mugabe crisis ?
I'm not aware of anything that Mandela could have done which he didn't do.
Is this some kind of convoluted game ?
byeck - just like General Amin, check out how he got there.
Councillor
If you remember, I merely asked for your opinion. I didn't make any accusations.
To the extent that you chose not to answer my question, I agree that you made the process rather convoluted.
You say that you're not aware of anything that Mandela could have done which he didn't do.
If Mandela would speak out that would be a big breakthrough. But in addition to his disinclination to attack Mugabe, the 'liberator' of Zimbabwe, in the past, Mandela is a very loyal person, and he has known Mugabe a long time.
Does that make me a racist, a moron or a bigot?
Mortimer
This won't do, you asked me the question, I answered and because you didn't like the answer you are now saying you didn't mean countries like this.
No, I'm only asking that we let words have their accepted meanings, not the meanings shoe-horned into them by some tinpot general.
Italy - collapsed into Fascism 1922 does that count ?
Not really, because it wasn't an established democracy in 1922. Yes, it seemed hopeful for a time in the late 19th Century, but it was hard to get a vote if you were not a landowner and the King held full executive power.
Let's try Germany, were they Capitalists ?
You mean the Weimar Republic? Again, not an established democracy. It takes a long time for such things to take root, but once they do they appear to thrive. Germany between the wars did not have such time, and the example of the Weimar Republic was actually why I specified 'established' in my question.
How about the great depression in America, what would have happened to America without the war ?
Who knows, but I doubt if they'd have shredded a 150 year-old Consitution. Anyway, you're reduced to 'what ifs' now, I see.
You seem ignorant of Chilean history, one of the oldest so called democracies in history.
I am indeed, so I had a quick squint at the CIA Factbook and Wikipedia. Not top-flight research I confess, but neither mentioned an overarching democratic tradition. I'd honestly be interested though, if you could enlighten me.
Patrick
Councillor
In the interests of accuracy, Idi Amin led a putsch when Prime Minister Milton Obote (another crook) was out of the country, so Amin was hardly "one of ours."
But lets not be picky - by naming & shaming Mugabe & Amin you've accepted that African leaders don't all have haloes and I regard that as a major triumph.
Now, I've given you Obote as another wrong 'un and the word is that Daniel Arap Moi (Kenya) had his fingers in the till.
Put these together with vote rigging allegations in Nigeria and it seems to me that you could be running out of heroes (at least, believable ones)
However,all is not doom and gloom -on the plus side, two citizens of that fair country want to give me squillions in exchange for my bank details.
Are you interested in joining a select few (Rfs,Jackart,Jim etc)to benefit from this opportunity?
General Amin conducted a military coup. Next question.
mortimer - I really can't work out why it took you so long to say what you were getting at, were you trying to be mysterious ? to appear clever ?
I don't say this makes you any of the things you say, which of course is not to say that you are not these things.
What you are is wrong.
Patrick - I fear that this is becoming sterile and no matter what I say you will not accept any country which I suggest. Not to accept S.A. Germany, Italy, Cuba etc. because you deem them inappropriate narrows the argument down to your parameters to such an extent that it is meaningless.
Chile ? Is 'CIA Fact book' not a contradiction in terms ?
I would certainly argue that America was heading for big, big disruption when the war intervened.
Northern Rock - go capitalists go !
Interesting.
I wouldn't so much say that I was 'wrong'. Perhaps a plagiarist, but not wrong.
It was actually Amnesty International that said, 'If Mandela would speak out that would be a big breakthrough. But in addition to his disinclination to attack Mugabe, the 'liberator' of Zimbabwe, in the past, Mandela is a very loyal person, and he has known Mugabe a long time.' (I'll give you the citation if you wish)
Would you accuse Amnesty International of poor judgment?
Mortimer
Byeck - My heroes have to work for their haloes, unlike those who find the Royal family heroes or drunken privileged crooks like Churchill.
Being British I 'm always reluctant to call people from other countries crooks, the people you refer to were all of course the results of British imperialism.
Squillions of pounds from two Nigerians seems like a good opportunity, do Northern Rock have a Nigerian branch then ?
Jim Lewis - Amin, along with many other nasties was a result of British imperialism.
He learned his tricks from the British Army.
mortimer - a bit sad really, at last you have got there, a tortuous journey.
Everyone reading this exchange including me knew this was coming I just couldn't guess from where, well done give yourself a cheer.
Do you believe that Amnesty are infallible ? did someone not send a post saying that mandela had spoken out ?
I still can't figure you out, you are acting like someone who is struggling to find the courage to say something really controversial, go for it mortimer !
I'm confident that Mandela will remain a giant whatever you or anyone else including Amnesty say about him.
Northern Rock?
The fact you think this is a good way to attack the free marekt shows that they are the exception. Just like Abu Graib (sp?) the attention it generates shows that, while occasionally these things do go wrong (and indeed there is no evidence yet that there is anything wrong besides the papers stoking panic) they go wrong infrequently enough for you to jump with glee when something presents itself.
And while you like it or not your Marxist dogma so beloved of wife and nurse beaters everywhere has been the most bloody ideology ever to exist. Just imagine how many Chinese there would be today without the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.
Councillor
Re Northern Rock.
Err, without using that, or another bastion of capitalism, how did you buy your house?
Thank you for the kind words of encouragement, but I am interested in understanding your opinion. I already understand my own.
As for 'seeing this coming', I'm not sure I know what you mean. Unless you are referring to the fact that you have called into question the judgment of the organisation that bestowed its highest honour on Mandela - in which case, I didn't see it coming.
Now, for what I hope will be my last question. I've nunbered it because it isn't always clear what answer you have given to what question.
1. Do you think the way to achieve great things in life is to strive to behave like Mandela, a giant of a man who we both admire, or to be close-minded, argumentative, and abusive to the majority of people who disagree with you?
Mortimer
you will not accept any country which I suggest.
Precisely! Because not one established, capitalist democracy has ever imploded, not to mention ever suffered a famine or declared war on another. The only reason I reject your suggestions is that they fail to satisfy one or more of the three requirements.
For what it's worth, the CIA Factbook is the best at-a-glance guide to the countries of the world I've ever found on the web. If you find a mistake, email them and they'll fix it. But I doubt if they'll re-list Cuba as a capitalist democracy for you.
Patrick
RFS - Abu Grahib an exception ? I'm glad you said that, so folks there you have it, it's official, America does not torture people. RFS, a fair minded unbiased observer has decided, well said sir, you get the sycophantic crawler of the year award for that one.
The Wall St. Crash - The Great Depression - Black Wednesday - 30's Germany - etc. of course it never goes wrong does it, one of capitalism's great failures is that people like you turn into brazen liars to defend it's excesses, should we now consider Northern Rock as a Nationalised Company ?
The rest of your post is regurgitated hogwash.
Byeck - You're on to something here, read my personal file and you will see I have shares as well.
You've got me, I had a mortgage too, I'm guilty, and before you ask I don't keep my spare money in a shoe box under the bed, Tommy Sheridan and the SSP do that.
Have you ever thought of becoming a detective ? I'm sorry to rain on your parade but, this has all been done before you arrived on the scene, knuckle draggers like RFS, jackart, Jim Lewis etc could put in the picture, if you dig deep enough you'll find the rest of the luxuries, cars, holiday homes, yachts etc.
Mortimer - well done at last, now we are getting somewhere, you must be some kind of wimp for it to take you so long.
I know it's difficult when your carefully prepared trap turns out to be a damp squib but you'll get over it, I knew as did others that you had found someone or something which I would be a supporter of who had in some way condemned Mandela, it clearly hasn't had the desired impact has it.
That's why, predictably, we now get the pathetic insults, you have flopped and you can no longer keep up the pretence. You would have been as well tattooing what you were up to on your forehead.
Underhand Mortimer, underhand.
Patrick - I have finished with this, all you have done is polish up your prejudices and change the goal posts as you go.
What does CIA stand for in CIA factbook ?
Councillor
Northern Rock.
You misjudge me, no personal
slur was intended. I fully expected Casa Kelly to be subject to a mortgage.
My point was that it is hypocritical to knock organisations whilst taking advantage of their services.
Now, about Maggies decision to sell council houses, are you 'for' or 'agin'?
Finally, Idi Amin, " he learnt it from the British Army."
So, he learnt how to get from squaddie in the KAR, to Field Marshall, Archbishop, Privy Councillor and Dictator of Uganda - by gum, the Army Education Service is vastly under-rated.
Knuckle dragger eh? To paraphrase your good self, this is high priase indeed, given the source.
You appear to have answered my question, preferring to insult rather than strive to behave like Mandela.
I didn't trap you. You trapped yourself. The 'point' was never about Mandela's approach to the Mugabe crisis. The point was to encourage you to demonstrate, through your own actions, how far removed your approach to life is from that of the man you admire so much.
Let's summarise what you have said in your responses to my posts:
-Trying to land a blow
-racial hatred
-nasty piece of work
-clearly not telling the truth
-trying to appear clever
-a bit sad
-wimp
-pathetic
-underhand
Now take a look at what I have said in my posts. I have neither accused you or Mandela of anything (the worst I have done is expressed disappointment at Mandela). Hardly deserving of the responses you gave.
I would encourage you to read Mandela's autobiography - A Long Walk to Freedom. I would also encourage you to understand what he is saying.
Mortimer
Byeck - I was using Northern Rock to knock the corrupt capitalist system that we all live in, do try to keep up.
Sell council houses ? Agin, but, that horse has bolted.
Idi Amin ? try to grasp this, I'll make it simple, no British Army = no Idi Amin, right ?
Jim Lewis - wow, devastating.
Mortimer - you said the last post was your last word but, I knew you would be back, because you were caught out and you can't admit that you're not quite as clever as you think, you finished your last post with insults so the above doesn't carry much weight.
'How far removed my approach to life is from Mandelas' you're clearly not afraid of being seen as pompous are you.
Perhaps you should have a look at yourself and learn from this, I know it's difficult, especially if there is an ego problem but, you've been caught out, live with it.
Am I wrong?
Mortimer
Councillor
You're against the sale of council houses, but you took advantage of the scheme and bought one.
Northern Rock as'example...corrupt capitalist system...etc' but you still used the system to buy the Kelly Dacha.
Councillor, hypocrisy doesn't even begin to cover it.
You're not big on hair shirts and the old Opus Dieu spiked garters when the Kelly self-interest is at risk are you?
Your 'British Army=Amin' line is a cracker. I honestly cannot think of a come-back.
I have finished with this ... [you] change the goal posts as you go.
The goalposts have been rock-solid for days. *Established*, *Capitalist* and *Democracy*. It's just that you can't score by giving me an example of such a nation which ended its days in tears, for the simple reason that there are no examples to give. The point is made though, I agree. Let's leave it.
What does CIA stand for in CIA factbook ?
Central Intelligence Agency. I'm sure you knew that, so why ask me?
Patrick
mortimer - 'am I wrong'I'm not sure what you mean but I will say this for the sake of clarity.
I think you tried to set me up by getting me to refuse to accept the criticisms of Mandela and then triumphantly letting it be known that it was Amnesty who were critical and not you.
I take anything else you say now as being tainted and I will treat you accordingly.
Patrick - *Established* *Capitalist* and a *Democracy* with the proviso that you will decide what is *Established* *Capitalist* and a *Democracy*
CIA Factbook ? I wanted you to write down that in matters of international politics you rely on, and trust, the CIA.
I'm sorry Patrick but you have damaged yourself badly here, in future when you write I will feel obliged to say well, 'that's an interesting point but, wait a minute, hold on, get real, this guy actually relies on the CIA for information, this guy actually trusts the CIA wow ! you aint joking are you ?
Byeck - House ? Wrong.
Mortgage ? Right.
Hypocrisy - Wrong. I admit to being a capitalist, one who wants to change it.
Hair shirts and opus Dieu - are you a sectarian bigot as well ?
No Britain = no Shah of Iran - no Sultan of Brunei - no Zia - no Nigeria - no Rawlings in Ghana - no Cecil Rhodes = a lot less pain, corruption and imperialist conquest and exploitation.
Britain has a glorious and disgraceful history, I choose not to ignore the bad bits - you by contrast, are a forelock tugger.
( Byeck - it might be dishonest, corrupt and evil but at least it's British )
You don't know what the CIA factbook is but you attack it because it is the CIA. You have never heard of it despite is has been around for decades? You really do only exist in your own wee bubble don't you.
Councillor
With apologies to any berserk Vikings amongst your readers, how in the name of Odin the Orrible can you translate my remarks on your dislike of hair shirts & barbed wire garters into 'sectarian bigotry?'
Heavens man, as a sensitive capitalist, I'm not too keen on them either.
with the proviso that you will decide what is *Established* *Capitalist* and a *Democracy*
Er, no. The OED will do just fine. Do you still honestly think Cuba fits the bill?
this guy actually relies on the CIA for information,
So... do you claim that Peru does not have 1,989 km of railway track? Or do you argue that the life expectancy in Bhutan is not 55 years?
Tell you what... find me a mistake in it and I'll concede that they might have missed Chile's glorious democratic history - which I'd still be interested to learn about, by the way, because at the moment I suspect you made it up.
Patrick
RFS - Along with millions of others I know about the CIA - your faith in them is touching and I imagine encouraging to those who are conning you.
byeck - 'odin' ? I think you said more than that didn't you ?
Patrick - I think that Cuba is far more democratic than any western country and I am delighted to print your admission that you trust the CIA - you seem upset by that, why ?
Councillor
I've re-read my post on 'hair shirts and spiky garters' and no, I neither said, or meant, anything more than I wrote.
You do creative bigotry so much better than me - I doff the capitalist bowler to a Master Craftsman.
byeck - your reaction confirms that you have been caught out, your still missing a bit aren't you ?
Councillor
I'm "missing a bit?"
I've no idea what you're talking about.
Please put me out of my misery and explain
byeck - explain.
I think that Cuba is far more democratic than any western country
Really? When did they last have a free and fair election, then? Fifty-odd years ago, wasn't it?
Off topic, but have you considered changing things so that comments appear as soon as they're submitted? It would let your commenters interact with each other and stop each of us repeating what others have said earlier in the day.
But, of course, your house, your rules...
Patrick
Patrick - Cuban elections 95% turnout, far more democratic than western so called democracies.
I don't know what your suggested changes mean but I will look into it and consider it once I have done so.
So you have never actually read the CIA fact book? If you had you would not be humiliating yourself with these comments. Can you tell us what kind of facts you expect it to contain?
RFS - Not much gets past you eh ? no I haven't read it.
If they told me the population of India or the speed of light I would accept it but, I think that even you would know ( or maybe not ) that there is a lot I would not trust them with.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that anyone who trusted the CIA was already humiliated.
Cuban elections 95% turnout, far more democratic
And how many names were on the ballot?
I don't know what your suggested changes mean
You have about half-a-dozen people who comment pretty much every day. If the comments were updated live instead of once-a-day it might make for more spontaneous threads? I think it's called open commenting, instead of moderated. But, as I said, it's obviously your call. Just a suggestion on my part.
If they told me the population of India
That's exactly what it does. And every other statistic about India, and everywhere else, that you can think of.
Patrick
Patrick - have we not done this before ? is there any point in this stuff about Cuba ?
I remain touched by your innocence about the CIA.
I still don't know what your suggestion means I'm not good at computing, but I will get my daughter to explain it ASAP
is there any point in this stuff about Cuba ?
It's just that I find your assertion that it's a representative democracy absolutely breathtaking. But let's leave it, there are new things to discuss.
I remain touched by your innocence about the CIA.
Whilst I await your indication of a single mistake in the Factbook.
Patrick
Patrick - As I've already explained the CIA and me might agree that 2+2 =4 but I wouldn't trust them with much more.
You can go on as long as you like about the CIA Factbook but you will get nowhere, you are wasting your time, in terms of international politics I don't trust them and I find it ludicrous that anyone else doe. it's not a very strong argument IMO when you are asked where you got that info. and you say 'the CIA' you are likely to get laughed at.
in terms of international politics I don't trust them and I find it ludicrous that anyone else doe.
Who said I trust them in terms of international politics? But the Factbook is another matter. As I said above, find me a single mistake in it and I'll take your arguments seriously.
Patrick
Patrick - move on - you are not going to get me to treat the CIA with anything other than complete contempt, that hardly makes me unique.
Karla said:
Terry,
I've not long found your blog and I was just reading your earlier post about 'terrywatch'. I'm truly shocked. I accept that everyone has a right to free speech but the stuff on that blog goes way beyond normal boundries. Truly viscious, hate filled and to honest I suspect more than one of the writers has a serios mental problem/ personality disorder.
Have you tried complaing to Blogger or raising the matter with the police?
It looks to me like a fairly well orgainsed gnat/tory alliance. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the work of party activists.
Totally sickening.
Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:52:00 PM
Terry Kelly said:
Karla - well said.
Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:09:00 PM
QED Terry. Copied and pasted from your blog. Karla suggested mental illness and you agreed. It's not the only instance, there are moments where you actually accuse people of being mentally ill. Want me to find them?
Jim Lewis
(Anonymous) 17:55
“and to honest I suspect more than one of the writers has a serios mental problem/ personality disorder”
I’ve warned you before Jim you are not up to this, read this again, I’ll even give you a hint as you are clearly not capable of finding it try looking at this “I suspect” are you not better to stay away before you disintegrate again ?
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