MY TITLE IS BORROWED FROM THE POET STEVIE SMITH.
It might be some time before the SNP faint hearts find the courage to march or appear in Elderslie or Johnstone. They are busy exacting revenge on the people of Johnstone and Elderslie for supporting Labour by closing their two community pools while at the same time rewarding the people of Renfrew by keeping the pool in SNP council leader Derek Mackay’s area open.
This is the politics of spite by some very mean spirited SNP troglodytes, the best attended of the 3 is Johnstone the second best attended is Elderslie and worst attended of the three is Renfrew. The lowest subsidy per swimmer is Johnstone the second lowest subsidy per swimmer is Elderslie and the highest subsidy per swimmer is Renfrew. The Victory Baths in Renfrew are 88 years old and the Johnston and Elderslie pools are approx 35 years old.
Hapless SNP Cllr. Brian Lawson in the PDE states people in Elderslie and Johnstone are not bothered about pool closures because there didn’t seem to be many at public meetings; the night before this letter was printed over 200 angry locals packed in to Johnstone public hall to ridicule that; my old man used to say "when it's raining soup, that's when people like Cllr. Lawson come running out with a fork" The SNP/Lib. Dem. council got slaughtered; meetings of this size were common during the dark Thatcher years now they are back courtesy of the wretched SNP / Lib. Dem. maladministration. Meetings protesting about SNP/Lib. Dem. cuts on Elderly Wardens – Education cuts – and now pool closures have all been packed; the level of public disgust at the administration is growing by the day.
In the document (Renfrewshire Leisure Annual Report & accounts 2007/08) we find the following under FACILITY PERFORMANCE PG. 9 :- 7 facilities are listed with the level of subsidy per visitor; they are as follows The Lagoon £3.72 – Linwood sports centre £3.18 – Johnstone Pool £2.04 – Elderslie Pool £2.71 – Renfrew baths £5.35 – Renfrew Leisure Centre £0.89 – Erskine Pool £3.64 – Erskine Sports Centre ££4.07 – McMaster sports Centre £3.44.
The oldest facility is (guess) Renfrew Baths at 88 years old; that’s 51 years older than the next oldest Johnstone Pool; of the 7 the highest subsidy at £5.35 a head is (guess) also Renfrew Baths while Johnstone Baths are second lowest subsidy per head at £2.04 and Elderslie Pool is the third lowest subsidy per head at £2.71.
Elderslie and Johnstone Pools which are in Labour Wards are to close and Renfrew Pool which is in the ward of (guess) SNP council leader Derek MacKay is to stay open and be repaired yet again. Labour MSP Hugh Henry correctly raised this in his PDE column using the phrase “political spite” is this really the behaviour that people who voted SNP or Liberal Democrat expect and do they actually agree with it? If Renfrew Baths can survive and I agree that they should then surely Johnstone and Elderslie can too. We know that nationalism is a parochial and narrow minded philosophy and here we see where it leads. A good friend of mine Peter Ross wrote a song years ago on the folk scene called “Home Rule for Govan” it finishes with the line “why should we stop at Govan; home rule for Copeland Road” these SNP fools have the same stupid backward opinions, lets hear the shout now Hamish ! more jobs for Scotland as long as those Edinburgh b******s don’t get them.
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34 comments:
As a resident of Johnstone, I have to say that I find your comments quite unbelievable in their hypocrisy.
I use both pools as well as the Lagoon in Paisley on occasion.
The state of repair that both Elderslie and Johnstone have been allowed to get into is ridiculous.
This neglect and deterioration took main place mainly during the reign of Labour in Renfrewshire. Let's not forget that the new council have only been in power for just over 2 years.
The decay and neglect of these buildings was the reponsibilty of the previous council.
Perhaps if Labour had spent some of the money that they through away on free computers for the people of Ferguslie Park and Shortroods (Terry Kelly's Constituency funny enough) then these pools would not be in a situation where closure is considered.
I am not a supporter of the pool closures, however, I cannot stomach your hypocrisy when you and your party are really responsible for the current state of the pools.
Lindsay Brown
Cochrane Castle
(Lindsay Brown) 02/09/09
Lindsay, either you have your own agenda (SNP possibly?) or you are speaking from a position of total ignorance.
I will simply put two questions to you.
Given that the SNP and council officers have stated publicly that these pools will not be closed for between two to three years what degree of “decay and neglect” do you think they are in?
Are you aware that the free computer learning project included Johnstone Castle; now who do we know stays there I wonder?
How often do you swim in either Johnstone or Elderslie pools Mr Kelly.
I would imagine that the answer is never.
Go and take a walk around the Johnstone pool building and you will see and compare this to the new facilities at the lagoon and you will know what I am talking about.
It would seem that that Labour could find plenty of money to do up the Lagoon but nothing to upkeep Johnstone which is now in a disgraceful state of affairs due to their neglect.
I would challenge anyone to attend Johnstone pool and see for themselves the state that the facility is in.
My understanding from discussions with my local councillor is that the will building will have to be nursed to keep it open in the interim period while the new facilities are built.
Also, you seem to insinuate that I live in Johnstone Castle.
Either you cannot read or you are completely ignorant of the local geography.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where you got this from?
Lindsay
(Lindsay Brown) 12:44
“I would imagine that the answer is never”
Not quite; I used to swim in all Renfrewshire’s pools with a season ticket; Elderslie was my usual; daily at lunch time for about 7 years I swam a mile my, regular time before stopping was 35mns. not Olympic standard but not bad for a fifty year old.
There are 5 pools listed in the Renfrewshire Leisure report and Johnstone comes second for attendance behind the Lagoon and top for the lowest level of subsidy, add that to the fact that it is to remain open for another 2 to 3 years and your description doesn’t hold water; oops.
You missed my meaning; “I wonder who might live there” was a way of telling you that some people you know might have been beneficiaries of the computer project; just sort of reminding that you were rather foolish to direct your prejudices at Ferguslie folk.
It is not necessary to close these pools, and Labour would certainly not have closed them.
This Labour conversion to preserving local pools is as welcome as it is overdue.
I'll be delighted when my Labour council reopens Govanhill Swimming Baths and spends a bit of cash addressing the state of this once fine piece of Victorian architecture.
Now if our local Labour councillor would also stop implying that we are trying to get it reopened as a 'Muslim only' swimming baths and stirring up anti-Muslim feeling in an area that does not need tensions inflaming I might go mad and start voting Labour again. What the hell I'll rejoin the party if our councillor stops implying that the only reason people want Govanhill reopened is because they dislike white people or laughably that there has never been a problem with racist attacks and abuse in Glasgow.
Well done and best of luck saving your local baths. If you'd like to get in touch I'm sure some of the people who've campaigned for the Govanhill baths would be happy to give you a few tips for your campaign.
Lindsay Brown is actually bang on the money.
Johnstone swimming baths are minging and have been for years.
I have stopped going because they are so bad.
I'm surprised there hasn't been an outbreak of something there.
The building has been allowed to go to pieces.
It is no wonder it has the lowest subsidy as ther has been no money spent on the place. That's why!
David.
A very relevant question has been posed here Terry.
Why did the Labour group not upkeep and upgrade the Johnstone pool when they were in power (only 2 years ago).
Perhaps you could offer an explanation of this.
It seems strange that Labour hiked up council taxes every year that they were in power and yet they could not upgrade Johnstone pool.
My understanding is that the investment cost of keeping Johnstone pool open for the LONG TERM (not 2-3 years) is absolutely massive due to the dilapidated state of the building.
Labour chose to ignore the upkeep of this building when they were in power and now seem to wish to push the blame on to the new council who are offering a very reasonable alternative solution and are not asking for more money from the council tax payer.
I for one have found it very refreshing to see a halt to council tax rises for the last 2 years.
Previously under Labour I was on the verge of having to sell my house if I had to face any more of Labour's exorbitant council tax rises.
(Dorothy) 03/09/09
“This Labour conversion to preserving local pools is as welcome as it is overdue”
No conversion here; every time a local council spends money on repairs and maintenance of a swimming pool it is “preserving” it. Renfrew Baths are 88 yrs. Old, Johnstone 38 yrs old and Elderslie 35 yrs old so we have ‘de facto’ been preserving them’
The picture you paint of your local Labour councillor is very difficult to believe but if what you say is true you should complain to the Party about the councillor and provide evidence.
I would not hesitate to move for expulsion of him/her if he/she were in my CLP.
(Anonymous) 09:48
“I'm surprised there hasn't been an outbreak of something there”
There has been an outbreak of something – lies, by the SNP and their supporters.
“The baths are ‘minging’ in danger of an ‘outbreak’ building ‘going to peices’ “
It has the second highest attendance figures (164,358) of the five pools listed in the Leisure report. You sound either stupid or disingenuous.
(Anonymous) 10:29
“Why did the Labour group not upkeep and upgrade the Johnstone pool”
How did it get to be 38 yrs old without constant upgrading and maintenance?
“My understanding is that the investment cost of keeping Johnstone pool open for the LONG TERM (not 2-3 years) is absolutely massive due to the dilapidated state of the building”
Let me give you the council figures then you can stop telling lies. The cost of the new pools is £10 M. the cost to renovate / maintain the two pools at Johnstone and Elderslie is £2M over 5 years, that by my calculations would keep them open for another 25 years, not my figures, the councils.
“I for one have found it very refreshing to see a halt to council tax rises for the last 2 years”
Well bully for you; those who need social work services don’t share your view, £1.1 M cut this year. Those involved in education don’t share your view £9.5M cut in two years. Library closures, school closures, elderly warden services cut, music tuition in schools cut by half etc. etc. but don’t you worry about all that you are alright aren’t you because; “there is no such thing as society” (Margaret Thatcher) clearly you are a big fan of hers.
Every building needs constant maintenance just to hold it open.
If Johnstone pool only needs 2 million to keep it open for another 25 years (which I very much doubt) then why did labour not invest this when they had an abundance of cash from council tax hikes.
It seems that labour had other priorities like giving away free computers, many of which were sold off to cash converters at the council tax payers expense.
(Anonymous) 12:50
Read it again; the cost of keeping both pools open for 5 years was quoted at £2M and they are spending £10M on the new pools so if £2M buys you 5 years then £10M buys you 25 years, I would hazard a guess that £10M spent on these 2 pools would see them last a lot longer than that, are you following this?
You call it giving away free computers and we call it investing in education and training for people who have been excluded, we pay taxes and Govt’s and councils decide how to spend them that’s how we get schools hospitals and local education projects, is this too complicated for you.
Mr Kelly,
I attended the meeting in Paisley Town Hall last Monday Night. I noted your presence along with Mr Hugh Henry and other Councillors I have never seen before.
What shocked me, winded me was the fact the Councillor Bruce McPhee stated from the chair that the Labour Party voted to close these pools, can you confirm for the record if this is true and is so why? are you not the Official Opposition on Renfrewshire Council?
Yours Margaret Burns
(Stunned and Shocked)
P.s I don't buy the SNP's claims that the Johnstone and Elderslie Pools are in a bad state, I use both and find them ok.
You obviously know nothing about building maintenance. upkeep and life expectancy.
To suggest that a cost for keeping a building open for 5 years should be multiplied by 5 to arrive at a 25 year life expectancy is if not naive then completely disingenuous to use one of your favourite words.
I work in contracts for a mechanical contractor involved with new building works with a building maintenance division and I can assure you that I know what I am talking about.
The upkeep and maintenance particularly of buildings older than 25 years does not increase in even terms as you suggest.
The older a building becomes then the more thing begin to fail and need upgradings such as rewiring, boiler replacements, ventlation replacements, compliance with new regulations etc.
i.e. if the first 5 years cost 2million then the next 5 years could cost 4 million and the next five years could cost 6 million and so on. This is obviously not an exact correlation, however, I have shown these figures to give you a guide
Therefore to keep these 2 pools open for another 25 years could cost more like 25-30 million pounds.
This would have been the same situation for Renfrew baths had it not had a fairly recent complete renovation and upgrade making its upkeep from here on considerably less expensive.
Ther is absolutely no question that building 2 new pools would be far less expensive than trying to keep open 2 pools that are older than 25 years and have not been recently renovated.
I'm afraid that you have made a fool of yourself here and negated your own argument.
(Margaret Curry) 13:40
“I work in contracts for a mechanical contractor involved with new building works with a building maintenance division and I can assure you that I know what I am talking about”
I worked in the building trade all my life as an engineer with British gas in just about every structure you can imagine and I can assure you that I know what I’m talking about. You are trying to muddy the water; the point is they do not need to close these pools.
“The older a building becomes then the more thing begin to fail and need upgrading”
Wow you really know your stuff right; a brilliant observation. The truth is that you haven’t a clue what it would cost hence your repeated use of the word “could” “2M then 4M then 6M then the quantum leap to £25 or £30M you’re real high tech aren’t you, I must look out for your company and avoid it at all cost.
“these figures to give me a guide” you’re having a laugh right?
There are some men who say that women should stay away from careers in engineering and building but I don’t and even you can’t change my mind despite your risible ‘back of an envelope’ estimates.
(Anonymous) 10:38
I assume you meant Johnstone Town Hall, I left the meeting after an hour and a half and didn’t hear that said so I checked with my fellow councillors who said that McFee said we supported the proposals he did not say we voted to close the pools, the Labour councillors all protested at this; we supported the proposals to build the new facilities with the caveat that Johnstone and Elderslie pools were kept open. So McFee has kept up his reputation for deviousness.
They are becoming more aware of the strength of feeling against their plans and they are worrying about re-election hence the desperate lies, Cllr. McGee SNP actually got elected by promising to protect the pools and saying that Labour would close them the exact opposite of the truth as we can now see.
It is our contention that if money can be spent to keep open the 88 year old Renfrew Baths in an SNP ward then money can be spent to keep open these two pools which are approximately 35 years old.
Why would an engineer with British Gas have the first clue about overall and long term full building maintenance costs that involve several different disciplines.
Maybe you were also a Joiner and an electrician and a plumber and a heating engineer and an air conditioning engineer and an insulater and a tiler and a slater and painter and a controls engineer and a bricklayer and a health and safety officer. In fact your talents know no end and I am sure that you could single handedly build a whole new swimming pool on your own in your spare time
Whilst I now work in contracts dept, I was until February of this year part of the mechanical maintenance estimating team and it was my job to provide estimates and quotations for new installations and short to long term maintenance for new and existing buildings. I was in this particular role for over fifteen years.
The figures that I quoted whilst cannot be said to be pinpoint accurate are based on an overall 22years in the trade.
What did you base your cost estimate on councillor.
Let's see. Eh, 2 million for 5 years then that must obviously be 5 x 2 million for 25years (counts it out on his fingers). Yeah that must be 9 mil.. no no 10 million doh!
Stick to what you know and you may appear to be slightly less of an imbecile.
And yes you are correct there are many fine women engineers these days who know exactly what they are talking about!
Margaret
(Margaret Curry) 05/09/09
“I am sure that you could single handedly build a whole new swimming pool on your own in your spare time”
No one could do that Margaret not even you.
“The figures that I quoted whilst cannot be said to be pinpoint accurate are based on an overall 22years in the trade”
After 22 years or was it 30 or was it 35? in the trade you come up with a figure of ? let’s see:£2,£4M, £6M, £25M, £30M. were you trained to think of a number then double it add your birthday and then take away the number you first thought of?
Customer to Ms. Curran- “how much will this work cost” Ms. Curran replies “it could be £2m or then again it might be £30M. And she describes me as an imbecile, you sound a bit rattled here, that’s not a very nice reaction Margaret.
Would “these fine women engineers” give me an estimate of between £2M. to £30M.
"Would “these fine women engineers” give me an estimate of between £2M. to £30M.2
A fine retort that said nothing.
You are on record ststing that "all women are thick" so I guess i should not have expected anymore from you.
Councillor Kelly,
I must apologise to you and your fellow Labour Councillors for even thinking that they would vote for the SNP's plans to close these pools, as you suggest Mr McFee is a master of "Political Spin".
I agree with your comments re Mrs McGEE, I can recall her comments during the recent bye-election, she said " I will always fight Labours plans to close any of Johnstone or Elderslies facilities", let me assure you Councillor her name is mud in the Housing schemes, I think her term in office will be a short one, ie one term only, the people from this part of Paisley are sick of her already, as I say her name is mudd.
Keep up the good work.
Mrs Margaret Burns.
Johnstone.
(Margaret Curry) 07/09/09
Simply suggesting that anyone who claims to know their job and boasts experience who offers an estimate of between £2M. and £30M. is perhaps sounding a bit silly.
You’re remark about “thick women” is an outright lie and makes you look even more desperate.
Telling lies and throwing around crude personal abuse seems rather unprofessional for smoeone who makes extravagent claims about their abilities.
(Anonymous) 10:37
McFee is infamous for being a bully who can’t be trusted; this kind of underhand behaviour is second nature to him. If Labour were never to win another victory I would still take comfort from the fact that he is a member of the SNP; they deserve each other.
Ms. McGee has been a one woman disaster since her election; the good people of Johnstone have got her number.
OK FOR THE RECORD HERE IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID
30/12/2007 Patricia Devlin said...
Why are no women allowed to comment here?
You've mentioned one being banned, you've called a black woman a liar for talking about racism but then no others have been allowed to comment.
Councillor are you a sexist?
Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:56:00 PM
TERRY KELLY REPLIED
(Patricia Devlin) 30/12/07 - You have just perfectly demonstrated why, it’s because they are thick.
Monday, December 31, 2007 3:12:00 PM
Care to call me a liar now councillor.
You obviously have a very low opinion of women.
Margaret Curry
(Margaret curry) 13:04
“You obviously have a very low opinion of women”
I have a very low opinion of some women and some men; the kind for instance who try to present this as a serious comment in an attempt to damage me; that kind is beneath contempt.
There can only be 3 possible reasons for your actions here; 1/ you really believe this in which case you definitely are thick. 2/ You are being deliberately mendacious which of course means you are a liar or; 3/ You have completely lost your temper because you have made rather a fool of yourself with your “estimates” (remember those)
I would go for a mixture of No’s 2 &3 together.
You seem to have a persecution complex Terry.
I started this conversation by pointing out that your methodology for calculating a 25 year life expectancy was flawed and incorrect.
I then gave a rough budget (and didn't proclaim it to be anything else) of what a more realistic figure would be based on years of experience in estimating these kind of figures. The point was to demonstrate that it was not as simple as multiplying a five year cost by five which is how you incorrectly calculated the figure.
To arrive at a more accurate estimate for a client, I would go out to several companies in the various different disciplines previously mentioned for quotations, as they are specialists in their own fields.
I would then compile their costs along with other associated costs such as regulation compliance and health and safety procedure costs to arrive at an overall figure.
I pointed out that as I have had years of estimation experience in this line of work then it made me more qualified to have a stab at these figures than a has been gas fitter.
The real point here is that you are trying very hard to manipulate figures in order to suggest that the cost of keeping open the Johnstone and Elderslie pools would be the same as having the 2 new pools proposed.
The council report only gives figures for keeping Johnstone and Elderslie open for 5 years and you cannot multiply these figures by 5 to arrive at 25 year life expectancy.
I am sure that you really know this but are deliberately trying to mislead people in order to try to undermine your political opposition (who incidentally are not of my political persuasion either).
Try sticking to something that you really know such as gas or hot air.
It woud appear that it you who has lost their. Being exposed as lying, sexist, manipulator must be really getting under your skin.
Councillor dear, you did make these as 'serious comments.'
I remember them distinctly because you banned me at the same time.
Be a good little gentleman and apologise to the lady
(Margaret Curry) 07/09/09
“I then gave a rough budget”
An estimate of between £2M. and £30M. is a “rough budget” Wow.
“To arrive at a more accurate estimate for a client, I would go out to several companies in the various different disciplines previously mentioned for quotations, as they are specialists in their own fields”
So you would do what me and everyone else would do, it’s rocket science isn’t it?
Why do you find it necessary to repeat yourself and at such great length as well as carrying on with the personal abuse; has something got under your skin, put it down to experience Margaret you bit off too much here; move on and stop digging.
(Anonymous) 07/09/09
Anyone who says my comments about women were serious is either a fool or a liar.
Your comments about women got you into no end of trouble, didn't they?
You admit making them, therefore I'm not a liar and as for being a fool,lots of people, including Labour members failed to see them as funny, so I'm in good company.
Now apologise to the lady, you misogynist.
(Anonymous) 18:29
No one from the Labour Party said a word to me about it, as I said either fools or liars.
"No one from the Labour Party said a word to me about it, as I said either fools or liars."
So you admit that you said it.
So it was either a sexist remark or a sexist joke.
Is one any better than the other.
Perhaps you should consider retiring with you ku klux friends
(Ronnie)
“So you admit that you said it”
If you care to look back through my posts and comments you will find that it’s still there, what’s to deny?
Either fools or liars, you sound like both.
'30/12/2007 Patricia Devlin said...
Why are no women allowed to comment here?
You've mentioned one being banned, you've called a black woman a liar for talking about racism but then no others have been allowed to comment.
Councillor are you a sexist?
Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:56:00 PM'
Very, very disappointing remarks councillior. I really did think better of you. Still come election time my 'thick' little brain will be telling me to cast my vote elsewhere.
A Former Supporter.
(Anna ( Feministing Group)) 11/09/09
“You've mentioned one being banned, you've called a black woman a liar for talking about racism but then no others have been allowed to comment”
A couple of men have been banned, People have also been banned for racism including men; and women are allowed to comment all the time including you but; Ms. Devlin seems to have won you over; are you a man hater?
I have to wonder if 11:56:00PM’ is significant here. If you are a member of a feminist group which I doubt then they are in big trouble, anyone who really believes what Ms. Devlin says is either thick or working to their own agenda or; perhaps in your case both.
If you are genuine then you know what you can do with your vote; I don’t want it.
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