4 years ago a young American peace activist named Rachel Corrie was killed by a Catterpillar Bulldozer. On Sept. 18 Th. 07 an Illinois court refused her family permission to sue the Caterpillar Co. They sell these machines to the Israel Defence Force who use them as an efficient means of destroying palestinian homes, whether they are inhabited at the time or not.
The families claimed that Caterpillar sold these machines to Israel knowing that they would use them to demolish homes in violation of international law, the family described it as a war crime, the USA Govt. gave evidence on behalf of Catterpillar, shock horror !
In 2002 in the West Bank while the Omar al-Shu'bi family slept in their Nablus home, an Israeli bulldozer destroyed their house without warning - 4 men 3 women (1 pregnant) and 3 children aged 4, 7 & 9 were killed - a good nights work for the Israelis, this is war Israeli style, be fair now, the 4, 7 & 9 year olds could have been very dangerous.
The Church of England following this voted to disinvest from companies making profit from the occupation, then like the good Christians that they are they voted to keep their shares in Catterpillar !
Yesterday a 16 Yr. old Palestinian boy was killed by the Israeli Defence Force using a Catterpillar Bulldozer. Israel and America must be proud of themselves, surely ?
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116 comments:
Terry:
As you are condemning the Israelis for damaging property, I presume that I must have missed all the posts where you condemn the Palestinians for murdering Israelis. Unless you think that blowing up a busload of civilians is a lesser crime then demolishing a house.
Rumbold - I find it very difficult to have any sympathy with Israel, I feel for anyone who is hurt or killed which means of course overwhelmingly Palestinian victims but the state of Israel is guilty as hell.
I can't comprehend how anyone can look the Palestine Israel conflict without condemning Israel it's utterly beyond me, do you think Israel is right ?
"court refused her family permission to sue the Caterpillar Co" - makes sense to me. Reminds me of the woman who threw McD's coffee over herself and sued... and the boy who played on his Nintendo for 23hrs a day, and sued when his thumbs stopped working.
Who makes the computer that you use to maintain your blog? Perhaps we could have a whip round to see if we can start our own litigation.
"an Israeli bulldozer destroyed their house without warning" - A tad naive, Terry. What kind of bulldozer, big enough to demolish a house, can sneak up on a family home unnoticed in the middle of the night?
The actual war crime was the Hamas mob hiding weapons in those houses, a fact taht goes under reported because people like you tend to point to the deluded communist who dies protecting those weapons caches.
Terry:
"I find it very difficult to have any sympathy with Israel."
You have to recognise that both sides must share some of the blame, and at the moment is the Palestinians and their supporters who are holding up peace talks by refusing to recognise that Israel has a right to defend its citizens from rocket attacks and suicide bombs.
"I can't comprehend how anyone can look the Palestine Israel conflict without condemning Israel it's utterly beyond me, do you think Israel is right?"
I too am critical of some Israeli policies but it is not Israelis who urge their children to become martyrs by blowing themselves up and murdering Palestinian civilians. Perhaps Sudan might be a more suitable topic, as more Muslims have been killed in Sudan in the past five years than in the entire history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
I support a two-state solution. Do you?
Terry, regardless of the rights and wrongs of demolising homes/safe houses, why do you condemn the digger manufacturer?
Surely it's like suing Clarks because you got a kicking some night?
Patrick
Terry, Israel aside companys sell goods to many people. What that person/state does with what they have been sold is sadly up to them.
Its like the old arguement of guns don't kill people, its people pulling the trigger that cause other people to die.
As much as I feel for the womans family in this, they might have been better off trying to sue Israel rather than the maker of the machines.
Sadly even if this company had been banned from selling these vehicles to Israel, someone else would have at the end of the day.
Councillor
I've read the articles on Miss Corrie & both sides are saying what you would expect them to say - "Not our fault" and perhaps they're both right.
Like you, I'm saddened by any hurt & loss of life, particularly when that death is needless, as Miss Corrie's was.
I'm sure her parents would rather have a live daughter than a dead martyr.
You say:
"I find it very difficult to have any sympathy with Israel"
So you openly admit prejudice... You go on
"I can't comprehend how anyone can look the Palestine Israel conflict without condemning Israel it's utterly beyond me"
I counter that I cannot understand how anyone can look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and condone suicide bomings.
Over to you Terry, you chubby sophilist.
Terry,
I'm in broad agreement but I think it's important to make plain the problem is with the sates of Israel rather than the people. That doesn't always come accross in what many people are writing about the conflict and makes it easier from the Pro-Isreal camp to paint us bloodthirsty nutters.
Guthrie - so a kid playing on his nintendo and a woman spilling coffee are the same as a family being wiped out by a bulldozer ? That says a lot about you.
I live along with my neighbours in a street where we have huge lorries passing and no one notices, a busy railway runs behind our houses about fifty yards away and no one notices, planes from Glasgow airport are landing and taking off less than half a mile away and no one notices and you are sounding rather silly.
Or, maybe it didn't happen ?
RFS - No weapons were found. Mind you pregnant women and small children can be very dangerous can't they ? particularly when they are asleep - everyone knows that that's when Arabs are at their most dangerous, right ?
Rumbold - Israel has systematically destroyed the lives of the Palestinian people for 60 yrs. They are desperate, they are reduced to living on a tiny percentage of the land which was theirs, I don't support suicide bombs but I don't find it hard to understand why it happens.
I support a two state solution because it's the only way forward but, I'm not prepared to lie about it, what I would like to see is a one state solution, Palestine, from the Jordan to the sea, a state that can accommodate everyone who wants to live there in peace and freedom.
Not the Artificial state of Israel which was created by force and is sustained by brutal oppression.
Patrick - Caterpillar sold the machines to Israel for the purpose of knocking down Palestinian homes while saying they were for commercial purposes.
Clarks don't sell shoes which are really good for giving someone a 'kicking' I doubt if anyone, even the most rabid supporter of Israel thinks that these machines are for farming, or maybe, surely not ? Do you ?
Anon - Thank you for your comments but I have to disagree, when a company sells a machine which is advertised as a commercial vehicle and they know that it is being used to demolish homes, sometimes with people still inside them, that company is culpable.
'Someone else may still sell them' but, that doesn't excuse Caterpillar, 'if I don't sell this 'mustard/nerve gas to Saddam Hussien then someone else will' doesn't sound very good does it ?
If I was selling a hand gun to someone I would assume that it would be used in whatever circumstances to shoot someone, that's what it is designed to do. It should be banned immediately. Anon - Thank you for your comments but I have to disagree, when a company sells a machine which is advertised as a commercial vehicle and they know that it is being used to demolish homes, sometimes with people still inside them, that company is culpable.
'Someone else may still sell them' but, that doesn't excuse Caterpillar, 'if I don't sell this 'mustard/nerve gas to Saddam Hussien then someone else will' doesn't sound very good does it ?
If I was selling a hand gun to someone I would assume that it would be used in whatever circumstances to shoot someone, that's what it is designed to do. It should be banned immediately.
they are reduced to living on a tiny percentage of the land which was theirs,
Yep, 90% sure is small.
Old Palestine comprised everywhere from the sea to the eastern frontier of present-day Jordan. Present-day Jordan is 4 times bigger than the lands west of the river (thats 80%) and only about half of the remaining 20% west of the river is under Israeli control. Which means that Jewish Palestinians only control 10% of Palestine.
Clarks don't sell shoes which are really good for giving someone a 'kicking'
I wouldn't know, I don't kick people. But you're avoiding the issue - how can you hold a company responsible for the way their goods are used? Where do you stop? Can I sue a garden centre because they sold a seed which grew into a tree which sprouted a stick that I hit you with?
Patrick
Byeck - I concur with much of this but, my position is clear any company who sells a product which they know will be used for illegal purposes, in this case knocking down homes with people still inside them.
"...in a street where we have huge lorries passing and no one notices..." [etc]
Let's imagine that you didn't have any planes, trains or automobiles *regularly* passing by your house. Then, one day, in the middle of the night, unannounced, a plane comes thundering overhead. You'd notice it for sure.
Either this family regularly had Caterpillar bulldozers thundering around their home in the middle of the night, presumably demolishing their neighbouring properties, or the bulldozers were completely unexpected.
If the former, one has to question their decision to stay put. If they realised there was a risk, and decided to take their chances (and put their childen's lives at risk), then this is an entirely different picture to the one you have painted, Terry.
If the latter, I still question how 10 people could sleep through the sound of a great lump of machinery heading towards them.
"so a kid playing on his nintendo and a woman spilling coffee are the same as a family being wiped out by a bulldozer ?"
If I choose to take a stapler to my forehead, I shouldn't be surprised if it hurts. The same goes with Nintenditis and the careless coffee drinker.
Ms Corrie chose to stand infront of a bulldozer. Presumably, she knew the driver of the bulldozer was going to do one of two things. Stop or continue moving. Presumably she also knew that if it continued moving, she would come to serious harm.
No matter how commendable her intentions, I'm afraid she deliberately put herself in harms way.
Anyway, Terry, you have missed a trick with this story. At the heart of the reason why the family was refused permission to sue Caterpillar is the fact that it was the US Govt that paid for the Caterpillars to be supplied to Israel. This meant that the Court didn't have jursidiction to deal with the family's claim - to do so would have been to call into question the US Govt's political decision to supply state aid to Israel - something which the Court is not able to do.
jackart - you are either incompetent or a liar - I have never condoned suicide bombing.
Kelly - I have said many many times that my quarrel is with Israel not Israelis same as my quarrel with America not Americans.
If you are up to speed with this as you appear to be you will be aware of the blackmailing tactics used by some of the pro Israeli lobby which amounts to screaming anti Semite at anyone who makes any criticism of Israel, this takes on a more sinister look in America where people come under extreme pressure to say nothing about Israel's behaviour, to the extent that peoples lives, jobs, academic freedom etc. are put at risk.
It's quite liberating to be unafraid of them, they are a disgrace to the Jewish people and a bunch of thugs.
Patrick - the last article I read on Palestine stated that the Palestinians are now living on 12% of what was once their land and I accept that, I think they are probably referring to 19 48 but you already know that don't you.
Selling goods ? it's you who is avoiding the issue, I have never said that companies are responsible for their goods being used wrongly or to commit crimes, never.
However, if you told the person selling you the seed that you intended it to grow into a tree which sprouted a stick which you would hit me with then yes they would be culpable if they sold it to you.
Here sir, is a fine kitchen knife, -- customer 'thank you I intend to stab someone with it' shopkeeper 'that'll be five pounds sir, have a nice day'.
Here is a nice bulldozer, good for farming and agriculture,------- customer 'thank you I'm going to use it illegally to knock down houses with people still in them' --- shopkeeper 'thank you sir that'll be £200,000 have a nice day'.
Any clearer ?
Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:14:00 PM
Posted to CATERPILLAR CRAWL AWAY FROM MURDER
More odd things about this story...
You say that the bulldozing of the family home happened in the middle of the night. Would I be right in guessing that you're a Guardian reader, for this is the way they reported it.
Anyway, if you had troubled yourself to do a bit of research, you might have come across the Amnesty report into the incident. This report states that the incident actually happened at 7pm.
The report also gives testimony from a witness. Ahmad Fu’ad al-Najjar claims that, as the bulldozing started, he asked a neighbour whether the family in question had vacated the property. He was told they had. At that moment, he turned to see the house being bulldozed and apparently yelled to the driver, 'Let the residents leave the house'.
Why would he say that, having just been told they had already vacated?
Perhaps all is not as people would have you believe and, indeed, as you would have us believe.
Guthrie - These innocent people were killed by an Israeli bulldozer, your attempts to deny this are risible, you are an apologist for an evil deed.
Ten people would not have slept through this would they - by the time they realised what was happening they might have been clinging to each other in terror, waiting to be murdered.
You say
"If I was selling a hand gun to someone I would assume that it would be used in whatever circumstances to shoot someone"
I shoot 9mm pistol for my TA unit team. Am I a Murderer? So You're wrong. Target pistol shooting is a sport banned by bigoted fools like youself. Look at what's happened to the gun-crime rates since.
Guthrie - I'm happy to print this it shows the depths to which Israel and it's apologists will sink. An Israeli bulldozer is faced by a young woman protester and the driver decides to run over her and kill her, you say 'she deliberately put herself in harms way' her own fault, that's the depths that you have sunk to, you and Israel.
The American Govt. Bailed them out so what's new ?
I think they are probably referring to 19 48
Natch. They would re-call the start when they had four-fifths of the territory already in the bag, wouldn't they?
Any clearer ?
Yes, I get the distinction you're drawing now. Fair enough.
Patrick
guthrie - we've done this you are happy to support a murderous aparteid state and I will continue to attack it.
As I said pregnant women and small children are dangerous.
"the driver decides to run over her and kill her".
Facts, dear chap, facts. There is reportedly a question over whether the driver of the bulldozer saw her. It is not clear that the driver *decided* to kill her. There are arguments on both sides. You would appear to deny the driver a fair trial?
Jackart - I've always had you down as a toy soldier and I very much doubt if you would have the courage to murder anyone, still maybe if their hands were tied and their back was to you, you never know.
Patrick - Whichever way you cut it the Palestinians now live on 12% of what was previously theirs.
"you are an apologist for an evil deed"
No. I understand how Ms Corrie could have come to harm. Just as you understand why there are suicide bombers on buses of Israeli civillians. I am no more an apologist for the death of Ms Corrie as you are an apologist for the actions of the bus bombers.
The difference, perhaps, is that I can be sure of the facts on which I might say the bus bombers are murderous savages. You cannot be sure that the driver intended to kill Ms Corrie.
Only a guttersnip such as yourself would ever make the kind of remarks you've made to Jackart.
Haven't you got any official business to attend to during work hours instead of insulting people on your blog? Isn't the ammount of taxpayers money wasted on you enough to buy your own PC and internet connection for you to blog after 'work'?
That's it terry, reasoned argument met with childish slurs. The level of debate common to all socialists.
Guthrie - 'she put herself in harms way, her fault' stop wriggling, your position is deplorable.
guthrie you are trying to convince yourself and not doing a good job.
You have now decided that a teenage palestinian who dies during a suicide attack is a 'murderous savage' I hope everyone reads this.
c4' - are you and jackart comrades ? are you in the same toy regiment ?
You sound quite angry, another saloon bar soldier eh
c4' are you and jackart comrades ? are you in the same toy regiment ?
another saloon bar soldier, my, but you are fierce guys.
I'm Straightedge Cllr Kelly, I don't smoke, drink or use narcotics. How about you?
jackart - come on now lighten up who in their right mind would want to risk the wrath of a warrior like you ?
Do they give you real guns to play with ? now that's scary.
C4' - I'm not familiar with 'straightedge' but you certainly sound tough, probably look tough too when you growl but, as Donald Sutherland said to Robert Ryan 'can they fight' ?
Me ? - don't smoke, don't do drugs could drink for Britain at the Olympics though. Most of my generation are similar, I'm 58 I'm a bit past it but, you've probably spotted that I'm not very impressed by the likes of you and jackart 'straightedge' or not.
It's so easy to sneer at the TA isn't it. Go and have a look at what they're doing on behalf of a labour government. Willingly and with courage and dedication you consipcuously lack. But never let the facts get in the way of good left-wing prejudice.
Your contempt for the military is clear, but each and every one of them is worth 10 idle slugs like you.
My contempt for you, as a person is absolute.
Tell us why they aren't murderous savages.
You say your battle is with Israel, not the Israelis. Yet the bombers, whose good name you defend, kill Israeli civillians.
Next. They undoubtedly kill, and undoubtedly intend to do so. That's murder.
Next. I'm no saint, but in my book anyone who blows up a bus full of innocent people is indeed a savage.
Tell me where i've got it wrong? And try to avoid abuse. Go on. Try.
Councillor
Your reply to Jackart, Sept 25th @12.06:"I have never condoned suicide bombing."
Yet your reply to Guthrie Sept 25th @ 3.50. attacks him for calling "a 16yr old Palestinian boy who dies during a suicide attack a murderous savage"
You do appear to have switched horses, but I've probably missed something and I'm sure you'll explain any seeming contradiction to your own satisfaction.
For the record, I agree with Guthrie's description.
Jackart - I was sneering mainly at you not the TA, They get paid and have some great fun, good luck to them, they certainly don't need you telling us about their willingness, courage etc. that's the kiss of death.
I don't claim to be special but, in pursuit of something that I consider worthwhile I consider myself to have as much courage and dedication as the next man.
I don't have contempt for the military I'm critical of what I see as a corrupt military system, I don't buy the flag waving hogwash that bar room heroes like you do.
I've printed you despite your language but you are trying my patience and, I reciprocate your contempt, now run along and play with your toy gun.
Guthrie - Suicide bombers kill Israeli civilians, you say 'that's murder' OK, let's have it your way then, what is it when the IDF shoot down women and children in cold blood or run over peace protesters with bulldozers ? Can you really not see that it's not that simple ? I have never supported suicide bombers but, I support the Palestinians right to wage war with the Israeli invaders.
Here's another thing IMO, anyone who straps explosives around themselves in the certain knowledge that they are about die by their own hand can be described in many ways but coward does not apply and, to their own people they are not 'savages' they are heroes, by your definition Ben Gurion and his comrades were 'savages' weren't they.
They committed acts of terror 'murder' according to your description, and they didn't even have the excuse of defending something, they did this while stealing other people's land.
Byeck - attacking jackart for describing a 16 yr. Old Suicide bomber as a murderous savage does not condone the act.
Read my last post to Guthrie on this.
You agree with Guthrie ? wow !
Councillor
"Attacking Jackart for calling a 16yr old suicide bomber a murdering savage does not condone the act."
It does in my book.
And to save you labouring the point, I think Irgun and the Stern gang were also murdering savages.
"...by your definition Ben Gurion and his comrades were 'savages' weren't they."
Ben Gurion tried to prevent the King David Hotel bombing when he realised that there was a risk of mass killing.
Aside from that, I appreciate your 'murderous savages' concession. Is this the first time you have seen reason?
I see that you "support the Palestinians right to wage war with the Israeli invaders". This is a strange notion for someone who proclaims in his profile to be an advocate of peace. If not suicide bombing, what acts of war are you happy to see Palestinians perpetrate on Iraelis?
Byeck - I think it's a lot more complicated than that, Irgun, Stern gang etc are revered by the Jews, not all of them obviously.
Consider this - substitute Britain for Palestine and Nazi Germany for Israel would the suicide bomber still be a 'murdering savage' ?
Guthrie - OK you've got me Ben Gurion was a nice wee man, is that your defence ? come on for god's sake !
I don't know what you mean by 'murderous savage concession', I don't consider Palestinian suicide bombers as 'murderous savages'
I am an advocate of peace but not a pacifist, do you find that confusing ? What acts of war ? I'm not an expert, lets say the same acts of war as the IDF would be a start but throwing stones at tanks doesn't work so something else would have to be done, wouldn't it ?
I'm opposed to suicide bombing because it kills civilians and often takes the life of the bomber who is likely to be young, innocent and misguided.
I have no qualms with Palestinians shooting members of the IDF I don't like war or shooting but, let me put it this way if I lived in the Gaza Strip I would like to think that I would have the courage to fight the Israeli invaders and, I also understand why the Palestinians use anything at their disposal to fight with.
Suicide bombing "often" kills the bomber?!
I can't work out when you're being witty or dense.
As for Gurion, I didn't say he was a saint. You may be right. As my Father might say, even the blind squirrel eventually finds a nut. (My Father's witty)
Councillor
It's not at all complicated - it's very simple: People who explode bombs in public places are murdering savages, no matter what god they worship or which cause they fight for.
I just know that you're going to disagree with the above, so let's come closer to home: (a) Would you describe the Glasgow Airport bombers as Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?
(b)What's your view of the Heroes who bombed Omagh?
Patrick - Whichever way you cut it the Palestinians now live on 12% of what was previously theirs.
Er, no. If the West Bank and Gaza represent 12%, that leaves 88% behind. Do the Israelis occupy an area seven times bigger than the 'Palestinian' territories? Of course not. So where's the rest, councillor?
I'll tell you. It's in Jordan. And having thus secured around 90% of Palestine (80% in (trans)Jordan plus 12% west of the river), the greedy Arab Palestinians want the rest.
Patrick
Tel, old boy... No need to publish this one but I've tagged you to reveal your earliest political memory.
The game is that you write a post, and then link 5 other bloggers to do the same.
Anyway... all the best.
Guthrie - the word 'often' is a rather obvious mistake so, well done for spotting that.
Is that it then ?
Byeck - My view of the Glasgow Airport and Omagh bombers is not as important as the view of those who support their cause and queue up to take their place.
Talk is cheap and talking tough is even cheaper, genuinely trying to bring about a stop to these incidents by addressing grievances, real or imagined is by far the most courageous thing to do.
that's why people like you are such brave talkers, if you and your kind could fight like you can talk there would be no problem would there ?
Patrick, The Palestinians live on 12% of what was once their land.
Patrick, The Palestinians live on 12% of what was once their land.
So where's the other 88% then?
Hint: "Occupied by the State of Israel" is demonstrably false.
Patrick
Terry,
Weapons were found, as were spider holes and tunnels. But you make my point for me, you scream about this girls death but you hide the fact that upon her death she is found to be a mark for Palestinian sob stories.
To repeat again, if you hide military equipment and supplies in civilian areas or areas of neutrality (such as UN watch towers occupied by unarmed Indians) you commit a war crime.
I don't know that Arabs were killed in the attack, Palestinians certainly were though.
RFS - I wouldn't expect anything else from you, you are a long standing supporter of Israel and you will never accept their guilt.
Councillor
You're wrong. As an elected representative of the people, your view of the Glasgow Airport and Omagh bombers is very important, so let's be having it.
Is it condemnation or praise?
Byeck - I answered your question, you are now asking me a version of 'have you stopped beating your wife' yes or no.
My opinion of suicide bombers is a matter of record - why don't you just tell me what it is you want me to say, because you are getting nowhere here, you're just not sharp enough.
Councillor
You're much to smart for me. How did you know that when I asked your views on the Glasgow/Omagh bombers, what I was really getting at, was 'when did you stop beating Mrs Kelly.'Or shoplifting. Or driving without a licence.
Fair cop,Guv.
I dont suppose you're prepared to take my original question at face value and answer it?
byeck - you would get on better if you dropped yor obsession with trying to demonstrating how clever you are.
I've answered that question.
Councillor,
What you actually said re my Bombers question was "my view of the...bombers is not important."
Your definition of answering questions differs dramatically from that of the OED.
If you are not prepared to condemn, then we must conclude that you condone their actions.
(Byeck) "What you actually said re my Bombers question was" "my view of the...bombers is not important."
I don't mind arguing with you but I will pull the plug on you if you tell lies, maybe you should read it again, what I said was "my view of the bombers is not (AS) important" which gives a different meaning.
Sort it or we no longer communicate.
Councillor,
My apologies, in trying to be brief, I left the quote open to misinterpretation. You did say "my view (of the Glasgow/Omagh bombers) isn't AS important...etc.
Having cleared that up, your view is tremendously important to me and your myriad admirers, so will you please answer the damn question: Do you condemn their actions?
So you don't want to answer my specific charges that this girl died defending an weapons cache? You just prefer to use the scattergun approach of playing the man?
Important or not, Councillor, I'd be very interested to hear your view of the people who blew up my home town and thus tried to murder me at the age of eight.
It wasn't Omagh, by the way, but the moral question is the same.
Patrick
Byeck - you didn't leave it open to misinterpretation, you lied.
I've answered the question already, many times, and to far cleverer people than you.
Councillor
What an ungracious little man you are. By my reckoning, that was the first time you've had an apology on this site so you should savour it, enjoy it, lap it up, because I can guarantee that it will be the last from this source.
And no, you have not answered my question, not even to far cleverer people than me.
Let me put it another, simpler way: Do you associate yourself with the comments made by Trish Godman MSP on her site re the Glasgow bombers.
A equally simple Yes or No will do.
RFS - On some occasions, like this it's more productive to just print you.
Patrick - I assume you are talking about somewhere in Britain but I can't remember any town being blown up, was it some kind of air raid ?
Anyway I'll say it again planting bombs is wrong I have always condemned it but, I accept that people get desperate and resort to these methods, there is no simple solution to some of these disputes, Ireland is classic example, hundreds of years it's been going on with each side trying to outdo the other in their ferocity.
What do Mandela, Makarios, Kenyata, De Valera, Adams, McGuiness, Carson, Begin, Nkrumah and many more have in common ? They were all regarded as terrorists by the British Govt. and all finished up as honoured guests and jolly good fellows by the British Govt.
I say it again your simplistic posturing might make you feel good but it answers nothing.
Byeck - "I can guarantee that it will be the last apology from this source." I doubt if it will be the last lie though. Had you had the grace or courage to apologise for lying I would have graciously accepted it.
I was taught never to demand a 'yes or no' when arguing it's a sure sign that you have lost.
Trish Godman was outraged at what happened, as I was, I think she and I have much in common about how to deal with this.
I don't call anyone a monstrous terrorist but I understand why people use such language, even someone as decent and honest as Trish.
I assume you are talking about somewhere in Britain but I can't remember any town being blown up,
The good people of London, Manchester, Warrington, Belfast and Enniskillen may have better memories.
Anyway I'll say it again planting bombs is wrong
Thank you. That's the opinion I was seeking to discover.
but, I accept that people get desperate and resort to these methods
There's always a 'but', isn't there? No-one in NI was 'desperate' in the recent past. They were just evil people who didn't have what they wanted.
[List of rogues] They were all regarded as terrorists by the British Govt. and all finished up as honoured guests
And isn't that dispicable.
Patrick
So you "just print me" pointing out you cannot defend your argument and you are indulging in mud sligning and you think it reflects badly on me?
Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Patrick - London, Manchester etc. were not blown up as you say, the Luftwaffe blew up London, your language to describe these events betrays a weak argument.
"There's always a 'but', isn't there?" Yes Patrick there nearly always is and it will continue in one form or another until people like you accept that people don't plant suicide bombs because they are 'evil' to suggest that they are , moves you from being simplistic to being silly.
"[List of rogues] They were all regarded as terrorists by the British Govt. and all finished up as honoured guests And isn't that despicable."
No it's not despicable, it's an admission that there is always a 'but' an admission that once lots of people have been killed someone will eventually sit down and say isn't it about time to try to understand why these people are doing this.
Why they are prepared to die against impossible odds. Why mighty military countries like America, Britain and Israel can't stop them, perhaps, just perhaps they do have a grievance.
RFS - keep it up you will some day convince yourself.
Councillor
Trish Godman "monstrous terrorists...violent and evil presence."
Councillor Kelly, the Pride of Paisley, (to Patrick)"I accept that people get desperate and resort to these measures,"
Councillor Kelly to me, "I dont call anyone a monstrous terrorist."
Compared to your rants against Churchill, Thatcher, SNP etc, it's a bit wishy washy isn't it and not exactly a ringing endorsement of M/s Godman's views.
Councillor, give me one reason, other than pure evil, why a Paisley doctor, would try to explode a bomb in Glasgow Airport, designed to kill and maim people who haven't harmed or persecuted him or his religion?
Byeck - Why am I 'the pride of Paisley' can yo not argue without that kind of thing ? I don't recall calling Churchill a monster or a savage, a drink sodden old crook OK but that's true.
Are you going to revert to type again distort what I said about Trish Godman whom I admire and respect ? I suppose once you have been exposed as a liar it's difficult to stop.
"Councillor, give me one reason, other than pure evil" I understand why inadequate people like you use such a phrase but, it's meaningless, it makes you feel better though more patriotic eh ? Maybe you would like to tell us what 'pure evil' is and why we should accept your explanation of it.
You see I don't know the reason but, unlike you and the rest of the armchair special branch I would like to find out.
"designed to kill and maim people who haven't harmed or persecuted him or his religion?
The whole point is that he clearly doesn't agree, I can't think of anything except the protection of my children which drive me to take such measures, I want to know why and it's not your abstract explanation of 'pure evil'
London, Manchester etc. were not blown up as you say
I've been there, Terry. I've seen it. Don't try to tell me it didn't happen.
people don't plant suicide bombs because they are 'evil'
What, so they're decent sorts in your book?? Thugs who will quite happily murder and maim people on a bus? Families in a shopping centre?
Have you seen the aftermath of a bomb Terry? Have you seen people destroyed? Trust me, it's not quite so romantic as you seem to think.
Patrick
Councillor
Are you claiming that I misquoted M/s Godman on the bombers or are you embarrassed that my views more nearly coincide with hers than yours do?
Let me give you another quote from her site, "when convicted, they must be given condign punishment."
So, M/s Godman talks punishment, along with most of the UK, whilst Councillor Kelly wants to discover their motivation......!!
Tell me, councillor, do you plan on visiting the Planet Earth anytime soon?
Patrick - Are you saying that 'decent sorts ' don't do these things ? That rather flies in the face of the hero worship which surrounds some of them does it not ? There might be any number of people who regard them as heroic, surely that's the problem, if it was as simple as dealing with thugs it would have been solved long ago.
Thugs don't do these things, people who believe in a cause ( rightly or wrongly ) do and, no amount of tough rhetoric from you is going to stop them, have you still not learned that
You just accused me of finding the aftermath of a bombing 'romantic' do you not wish to consider your position here ?
Byeck - "are you embarrassed that my views more nearly coincide with hers ( Ms. Godman) than yours do? That would not embarrass me it would horrify me.
"Condign punishment" no problem.
So, M/s Godman talks punishment, along with most of the UK, whilst Councillor Kelly wants to discover their motivation......!!
Another crude lie, I'm losing patience with you.
C'mon Councillor, go for it. Show your readers where I lied.
(1) If you're claiming that I misquoted Ms Godman, the quotes on the bombers came directly from her site. (In case you hadn't noticed, you do have a link to it)
(2) Your reply to me, 5th Oct 3.35pm. does not mention any punishment, condign or otherwise, you simply say"I dont know the reason why, (they do it) but unlike you...I would like to find out."
You're saying I have no interest in finding out their motivation.
You're wrong,I am interested in 'Why?' but where we differ is that I also want them clobbered and you didn't, until the Godman quote leapt out and bit you.
So, Councillor, no more weasel words, do you associate youself with Ms Godmans position on this or not?
Renfrewshire should be told.
Byeck - Where did say you misquoted her ? I said that you were twisting her words you liar.
"I didn't want them clobbered" I presume you mean punished ? So there we have it, Byecks's conclusion 'Terry Kelly doesn't want the bombers punished" you liar.
I've never heard you asking why all I've heard from you is tough talk which is of course cheap.
I've already told you that we share the same view. If you are so sure that you are closer to her position than me, perhaps you could share your thoughts with us as to what should happen to the bombers. Try doing it without your customary lies.
Re Ms Godman - as usual, you're all puff and no substance Councillor, so I'll ask you again, tell your readers where I lied or twisted Ms Godman's words.
Put up or shut up, Terry.
byeck - you take what Trish Godman has said and twist it to suggest that she and I are at odds on this issue.
That's dishonest, in fact it's another form of lying, again !
"I twisted what Ms Godman said to make it appear you were at odds...another form of lying."
Is that it then?
Woeful, councillor, woeful.
Point your readers in the direction of any criticism, or suggestion of punishment you made in respect of the Glasgow/Omagh bombers, prior to the Godman views surfacing.
You've been handbagged councillor,and the Kelly credibility hangs by a thread.
There might be any number of people who regard them as heroic, surely that's the problem
Alas, it is. It's particularly the case with the Palestinians, who often bring their children up to hate before they can walk. But I've seen it here too - children stoning the Army when they couldn't even spell UK, never mind understand its alleged crimes.
Thugs don't do these things, people who believe in a cause ( rightly or wrongly ) do
Look, I believe in loads of causes, but I'm not prepared to murder people for them - because I'm not a thug. However, if I decided to kill you because you had a different opinion to me, then I would be a criminal of the highest order.
As Pascal said in 1669, "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction". Note the word he chose... evil.
You just accused me of finding the aftermath of a bombing 'romantic'
Just an impression I get from your tone, that's all. Of course, there's more je ne sais quoi in blowing up a busful of shoppers than there is in dropping a targeted weapon on a single bad guy, isn't there?
Patrick
Byeck - you are trying to imply that there is a difference of opinion on this matter between Trish Godman and me on this matter and there isn't.
Your dishonest position is that I do not believe that these bombers should be punished.
I'm happy to let others decide whether your position is tenable.
Patrick - the Israelis just announced today that they are grabbing more Palestinian land I find your position more and more untenable - children tend to be greatly influenced by their parents and Palestinian parents have every justification in hating Israel.
"Look, I believe in loads of causes, but I'm not prepared to murder people for them" the whole point is that you have never believed in a cause strongly enough and if you did you would not call it murder.
Pascal did not call the perpetrator 'evil' he called the deed 'evil' a subtle difference and so important, you can love the criminal and hate the crime, that was me who said that.
Well, do I 'find the aftermath of a bombing romantic' ? Nearly as romantic as you would find a pile of mangled dead Palestinian children, murdered by the I.D.F. Is that where you want to go ?
Israelis just announced today that they are grabbing more Palestinian land
I didn't know that. I had a look at the BBC Middle East page though, but all I could find was this.
the whole point is that you have never believed in a cause strongly enough
You have no idea how strongly I believe in things. But, bizarrely, I believe in the sanctity of human life too much to blow myself up amongst those who think different.
you can love the criminal and hate the crime,
Maybe you and Jesus can, but I can't. I tend to hold people responsible for their actions.
Nearly as romantic as you would find a pile of mangled dead Palestinian children, murdered by the I.D.F.
Of course I wouldn't. It would be horrible. But if it did happen, it would almost certainly be an accident, there would almost certainly be an investigation, and the soldiers reponsible would almost certainly be punished. Compare with Arab Palistinians, who frequently do such things on purpose, before lionising those responsible and putting their heads together to try to do it even better next time.
Patrick
Patrick - "You have no idea how strongly I believe in things. But, bizarrely, I believe in the sanctity of human life too much to blow myself up amongst those who think different." If you believed strongly enough in something you would do anything for it we all would, it might not be the same cause for everyone but we would all do it.
OK this is an extreme example but you leave me no choice, if blowing myself up in a crowd of people was the only way I could save my children from certain death I would do it, would you ? There are no easy answers are there Patrick no matter how much you kid yourself.
"Of course I wouldn't. It would be horrible. But if it did happen, it would 'almost certainly' be an accident," That's because they, the perpetrators, are on your side, and history tells us that your/my/our side doesn't do such things it's our enemies that do these things isn't it ?
Did you know that German soldiers made pacts with each other agreeing to kill any of their number who was injured rather than leave them to the mercy of Scottish soldiers ?
OK this is an extreme example but you leave me no choice, if blowing myself up in a crowd of people was the only way I could save my children from certain death I would do it, would you ?
Under what possible circumstances would you be faced with this outlandish choice?
The thing is, though, you're right in that the Arab Palistinians hate the Israelis as much as normal people love their children. And that's the root of the problem.
your/my/our side doesn't do such things it's our enemies that do these things isn't it ?
Not always, but usually. This is why Germans dreaded being sent to the Eastern Front. Fight the Allies and you'd have a excellent chance of being well treated. Fall into the hands of the Red Army and, well, you'd be lucky to even reach the salt mines.
Did you know ... [Germans would shoot comrades] rather than leave them to the mercy of Scottish soldiers ?
I didn't, and still don't. But I'd be fascinated to read an account.
Patrick
Patrick - "Under what possible circumstances would you be faced with this outlandish choice?" that is not an answer.
"The thing is, though, you're right in that the Arab Palistinians hate the Israelis as much as normal people love their children. And that's the root of the problem."
That was racist. don't you want to go back and look at your use of the word 'normal' are Palestinian Arabs sub normal ? Are you a Nazi or something ?
"your/my/our side doesn't do such things it's our enemies that do these things isn't it ?" "Not always, but usually."
Again racist and rather stupid, what's happened to you Patrick ? Johnny Foreigner doesn't fight fair, carry on Biggles.
Did you know ... [Germans would shoot comrades] rather than leave them to the mercy of Scottish soldiers ?
This was something that I saw in a television documentary about World War 1 years ago, the Scottish Soldiers were referred to by the Germans as 'the ladies from hell' (Kilts) it could of course have been propaganda by the Germans not the kind of thing that we would do is it ? What with the Russian Front etc. eh ?
As youngsters we thought that was quite a good thing, tough Scots. Etc. A very depressing exchange Patrick I'm beginning to give up hope for you.
That was racist. don't you want to go back and look at your use of the word 'normal' are Palestinian Arabs sub normal ?
No, it wasn't racist because I was referring to the culture, not the race. I don't even know what race Palestinian Arabs belong to. If anything, it was a culturalist statement.
(Our side doesn't [commit war crimes etc.]) Again racist and rather stupid
Again not racist, unless you're implying that all true Brits must be of one race, which is better than all the rest? Well, are you, Terry?
And not stupid, as any glance at history will tell you. Of course there are exceptions - Amritsar and Derry come to mind, but compared to the Gulag, the Lao Gai and to a much lesser extent Guantanamo Bay, I think we've done pretty well.
(Germans shooting the wounded rather than leaving them to the Scots)
This was something that I saw in a television documentary about World War 1 years ago
We shot our mortally wounded too, to spare them suffering, and I'm sure the Germans did the same. That's very different from shooting those who would otherwise live because captivity would be unbearable. Is there any evidence the Germans did this? I doubt it, but await correction.
Patrick
Patrick - "No, it wasn't racist because I was referring to the culture, not the race. I don't even know what race Palestinian Arabs belong to. If anything, it was a culturalist statement."
Their culture is inferior and sub normal then, I'm sure that makes you feel better.
"Our side" this is a cop out, call it what you like Patrick but this is just silly, there is very little morality or proper behaviour in war it's not like Biggles and we, (whoever we are) are no different.
The fact that 'we' committed atrocities and still do is the real issue, counting victims is deliberately misleading whether we did and still do these things or we didn't and don't, is what matters.
A drama series round about the same time (called I think 'Days of Hope') showed British Soldiers in the trenches enjoying one of their favourite pastimes with captured Germans, the prisoners were being 'shod' like horses with their boots being nailed on to their feet.
I reluctantly concede that these things happened, do you think a dramatist or the BBC would dare write/ show that without research to back it up ?
Wake up Patrick we are no better than anyone else in these matters, is it not ultimately more patriotic to tell the truth about one's own country ?
Their culture is inferior and sub normal then, I'm sure that makes you feel better.
It does.
I reluctantly concede that these things happened,
So do I. In fact I mentioned two shameful incidents of historic fact, compared to your 'drama series'.
we are no better than anyone else in these matters,
But here you go too far. We had, and still have, one of the most honourable forces on Earth. Do you really think we're no better than the Nazis, or the Red Army, or the Taliban? Or if you do, I'm sure you'll have evidence of 6,000,000 deaths, 2,000,000 rapes and absolute domination of women carried out in the name of Her Majesty to match the conservative exploits of those benighted organisations.
Patrick
Patrick - "Their culture is inferior and sub normal then, I'm sure that makes you feel better.
It does"
If you ever seriously want to examine the reasons why we (the West) are so hated by so many people world wide you could start by reading these words again.
"We had, and still have, one of the most honourable forces on Earth."
No we don't, our history is as pernicious as any country on the planet.
" Do you really think we're no better than the Nazis, or the Red Army, or the Taliban?" I believe that we are capable of doing anything that others have done. Nazis ? If a nation and ancient culture like Germany could do what they did then I think we could also, we are no different, lots of British people, Mosley, the Royals etc the people you look up to, thought Hitler was a great guy.
You and I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for our 'Heroic Red Army Comrades' The Taliban could learn a thing or two from our own cuddly terrorists. I consider the bombing of defenceless German cities by us as a war crime which more than makes up for your numbers game, that took me two seconds.
If you ever seriously want to examine the reasons why we (the West) are so hated by so many people world wide you could start by reading these words again.
What, you think that a misogynistic, antidemocratic theocracy is a superior system of government to our own? The reason the West is hated is simply because it is free. Our enemies say this themselves.
No we don't, our history is as pernicious as any country on the planet.
Er, no, it isn't. Compare and contrast British India to the Belgian Congo, say, and tell me where you'd rather have lived.
If a nation and ancient culture like Germany could do what they did then I think we could also
We didn't though, did we? So that falls on its face...
You and I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for our 'Heroic Red Army Comrades'
Nor would the Soviet Union have survived WW2 without us. What's your point?
I consider the bombing of defenceless German cities by us as a war crime which more than makes up for your numbers game
1. The Third Reich was far from defenceless.
2. No court has ever agreed with you.
3. 6 million were killed in the bombing of a city of 800,000 souls? (Dresden) Biggles was on form that night, wasn't he?
Patrick
" I believe that we are capable of doing anything that others have done. Nazis ? If a nation and ancient culture like Germany could do what they did then I think we could also, we are no different, lots of British people, Mosley, the Royals etc the people you look up to, thought Hitler was a great guy.
You and I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for our 'Heroic Red Army Comrades' The Taliban could learn a thing or two from our own cuddly terrorists. I consider the bombing of defenceless German cities by us as a war crime which more than makes up for your numbers game, that took me two seconds."
Jesus wept, and you have the unmitigated gall to take me to task for having lived in South Africa under apartheid.
If you hate the British so, why don't you pack your belonging and sod off.
Patrick - "The reason the West is hated is simply because it is free. Our enemies say this themselves." The reason is that people like you believe themselves to be superior and treat others accordingly.
"Err no, it isn't. Compare and contrast British India to the Belgian Congo, say, and tell me where you'd rather have lived." Err. Yes it is I didn't say British India I said British History, you are being disingenuous again.
"We didn't though, did we? So that falls on its face" Disingenuous again you should be ashamed I didn't say we did what nazi Germany did I said we were capable of it, your attitudes back me up.
"Nor would the Soviet Union have survived WW2 without us. What's your point?" Quite simple, they saved our skins, their sacrifice was enormous, I remember my mother telling us of how they would knit socks for the Soviet heroes.
"1. The Third Reich was far from defenceless" lies yet again I didn't say they were, I said defenceless German cities were bombed, Hamburg, Dresden etc."
"2. No court has ever agreed with you."
" Now you are just being silly, can you remember who it is that writes the history books"
3. "6 million were killed in the bombing of a city of 800,000 souls? (Dresden) Biggles was on form that night, wasn't he?"
A strange argument do you want me to explain ? Do I need to ? These were of course just some examples, but you know that don't you.
I know that it must be difficult for someone like you to admit to your countries sins, to admit that your country, your people are no better and no worse than anyone else. To do that you would have question every lie, every piece of propaganda that you have taken in, it's sad really.
H.C. "Jesus wept, and you have the unmitigated gall to take me to task for having lived in South Africa under apartheid." Not so Henry I take you to task for being a racist supporter of S.A. Apartheid.
"If you hate the British so, why don't you pack your belonging and sod off."
I don't hate the British, I am British, I just happen to think that the truth is important, even if it hurts. Telling lies about your country to hide it's shame is just about the most unpatriotic thing you can do.
Err. Yes it is I didn't say British India I said British History
You did, and I gave specific examples to prove you were talking rubbish. I thought that was better than just saying "Oh no it wasn't" to your "Oh yes it was".
I said we were capable of it, your attitudes back me up.
And I'm capable of walking to John o'Groats. So what? I'm never going to actually do it.
Quite simple, they saved our skins, their sacrifice was enormous,
As we saved theirs. Again, what is this supposed to prove?
I said defenceless German cities were bombed, Hamburg, Dresden
Have you never heard of flak? Me 109's? FW 190's?
Now you are just being silly, can you remember who it is that writes the history books"
That's different from a judgement though, isn't it? Think of Nelson Mandela. History will remember him to be a great man, but the judgements against him will still stand.
I know that it must be difficult for someone like you to admit to your countries sins,
This is odd. We discussed the UK's misdemeanours earlier, and I mentioned Amritsar and Derry, two instances of historic fact. You came up with a drama series but couldn't be sure of the title. So tell me, who is more accepting of our sins?
Patrick
Patrick - This is becoming sterile - I maintain that Britain is capable of doing what Nazi Germany did, I didn't say we had done it or were going to, I said we could.
The way you refer to other people and the way you assume to be better than others is strong evidence that you would be capable of these things, you might even lead because of your conviction while others might join once the hysteria and propaganda kick in.
Defenceless German cities like Dresden were bombed despite they had no strategic targets if Germany had done this we would have quite rightly described it as a war crime.
Your assertion that we are better or have higher standards than anyone else is pathetic, read today's news about the Iraqi corpses with the torture marks, could it possibly be true ?
I maintain that Britain is capable of doing what Nazi Germany did,
I agree, just like I'm capable of walking to John o'Groats. But for the nth time, so what?
if Germany had done this we would have quite rightly described it as a war crime.
Uh, they did. We called it the Blitz, remember? But we refrained from calling it a war crime, because it, er, wasn't one.
read today's news about the Iraqi corpses with the torture marks,
Who tortured them? And anyway, you're reading about these crimes. It's called a free press. Five years ago they'd have disappeared into Saddam's dungeon and never been heard of again.
Patrick
Patrick - I make that remark because I think it is significant, human beings are capable of acting like animals, including Britons.
Comparing the Blitz with Dresden does you no credit.
This was I think 3 years ago and the allegations are against the British.
Comparing the Blitz with Dresden does you no credit.
Why not? What's the difference?
This was I think 3 years ago and the allegations are against the British.
Thousands of troops, surrounded by those who wish them ill, and not one man has misbehaved in three years? And still you think we're no better than those who whould saw off heads and post the results on the internet?
Patrick
Patrick - The Blitz was seen by the Germans as a legitimate act of war - We knew that the Germans were beaten when we bombed Dresden.
We killed tens of thousands of unarmed civilians it was not a 'military' target.
These allegations are three years old and they might get off. We in Britain don't do anything dishonest do we ?
We knew that the Germans were beaten when we bombed Dresden.
Tell that to the men who were still fighting.
Patrick
Patrick - Many of the men you refer to now accept that we should never bombed these cities including, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
They were not military targets, it was done out of revenge and to spread terror among civilians, had the enemy done something similar we would have called it war crimes but having dealt with you for so long I know you can't admit that.
Many of the men you refer to now accept that we should never bombed these cities
With hindsight, I would say we shouldn't have too. But then we shouldn't have embarked on Market Garden either - but that doesn't make the prosecution of the war wrong.
had the enemy done something similar we would have called it war crimes
They did, and we didn't, because it wasn't.
Patrick
Patrick - We are drifting away from the point I maintain that we are no better than anyone else and perfectly capable of committing atrocities.
I thought once that our 'Brave British Boys' were good and the enemy were bad, end of story, but that was when I was a child reading war comics.
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