Recent events will inevitably make life more difficult for people who seek asylum in our country, the red topped yellow press are stirring up hatred of 'Johnny Foreigner' just like old colonial times, the old lies are back in fashion, 'stealing our jobs and houses and scrounging off social security' etc. unfortunately people read this poison and don't bother to check the facts which do not support these claims.
Fact - Asylum Seekers are not entitled to housing or benefits until they become permanent.
Fact - Less than 5,000 in 2006 were granted permission to stay.
Fact - They are assessed in the same way as others, they are treated no differently.
Fact - 82% are between 18 and 34 yrs old & 93 % have no dependants. This means they are in the low priority group for social housing.
Fact - Only 0.06 % of Local authority tenants in 2006 were immigrants. A mere 0.3 % were deemed eligible for homelessness assistance and, Between 2005/2006 a minute 1% of social tenants were from abroad.
Conclusion ? we are being lied to big style, do your homework and don't be manipulated by the gutter right wing press.
ASYLUM BEJASUS ! _ A ray of hope from the Emerald Isle, 47 yr. old Rotimi Adebari from Nigeria has become the first black Mayor in Ireland he is now 1st. citizen of Portlaoise, Co. Laois. When he settled there a mere 7 yrs ago his two kids were the only foreigners in the school, there are now more than 30 nationalities in the school. The USA by contrast has just elected it's first black Governor in Massachusetts after 300 yrs. This is the way forward ("we must love one another or die" - W. H. Auden) - I fear that several hundred more years will go by before the killing and the hatred stops, by then, we will have accepted that Capitalism does not work, if anyone is still here that is.
As they say in Ireland, to the Asylum Seeker and struggling immigrant 'may our giving hand never wither'
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The view from Left field, politics, entertainment, argument and insight into my world. For Socialism, peace and justice, against racism, sexism, sectarianism, nationalism and discrimination. Avanti Poplo!
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I represent Ward 4 Paisley North West. I'm a Socialist who believes in equality, peace and the redistribution of wealth, I oppose Racism, Sexism, Sectarianism, Nationalism and any kind of discrimination. Best wishes for a Socialist future.
What appears on this website are my personal views and opinions. Not those of the Labour Party, Renfrewshire Council or anyone else, mine only.
What appears on this website are my personal views and opinions. Not those of the Labour Party, Renfrewshire Council or anyone else, mine only.
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Readers will note the contradiction of having Amazon books here and the more ethical Housman's books above. I have decided to keep it here and continue to pass the renumeration from them to a good Socialist cause.
56 comments:
Your blog is very interesting!
Please, send me the photo of your pc desk and the link of your blog.
I'll publish on my blog!.
Thanks Frank
EMAIL: pcdesktop1@gmail.com
But capitalism has only been going, in parts of the globe, for approximately 300 years. In the previous 10,000 years, when it was not operating, I can detect no dimunition of Man's effort to slaughter his own species. Nor, looking back at the last 300 years during which a few Marxist Socialist states came into existence (briefly, before collapsing under their own internal contradictions) can I see any improvement in the ongoing grudge match between War vs. Peace.
It's only a suggestion, Councillor, but do you think you might be just a tad simplistic in your world view?
Well said (about asylum). What would be great would be a change in the law that resulted in asylum seekers being able to work while their claims were being processed.
I suspect the reason that many come here is to do with the fact that we have a capitalist system, which means they can work and earn money for their families. I do not see them flocking towards countries with command and control economies.
I agree with you about the "red tops". However, in trying to enlighten my "red top" reading colleagues, I put an intelligent & articulate article from a young male Muslim (The Observer-Sunday 1st July-read it online if you are interested)on the kitchen notice board in work. I am now in deep mire. My Muslim colleagues have complained to management about my actions and intentions! Maybe we should just leave all those with blinkered views to get on with their little lives and give up the fight! Mo
Recent events will inevitably make life more difficult for people who seek asylum in our country, the red topped yellow press are stirring up hatred of 'Johnny Foreigner' just like old colonial times, the old lies are back in fashion, 'stealing our jobs and houses and scrounging off social security' etc. unfortunately people read this poison and don't bother to check the facts which do not support these claims.
Fact - Asylum Seekers are not entitled to housing or benefits until they become permanent.
Fact - Less than 5,000 in 2006 were granted permission to stay.
Fact - They are assessed in the same way as others, they are treated no differently.
Fact - 82% are between 18 and 34 yrs old & 93 % have no dependants. This means they are in the low priority group for social housing.
Fact - Only 0.06 % of Local authority tenants in 2006 were immigrants. A mere 0.3 % were deemed eligible for homelessness assistance and, Between 2005/2006 a minute 1% of social tenants were from abroad.
Conclusion ? we are being lied to big style, do your homework and don't be manipulated by the gutter right wing press.
ASYLUM BEJASUS ! _ A ray of hope from the Emerald Isle, 47 yr. old Rotimi Adebari from Nigeria has become the first black Mayor in Ireland he is now 1st. citizen of Portlaoise, Co. Laois. When he settled there a mere 7 yrs ago his two kids were the only foreigners in the school, there are now more than 30 nationalities in the school. The USA by contrast has just elected it's first black Governor in Massachusetts after 300 yrs. This is the way forward ("we must love one another or die" - W. H. Auden) - I fear that several hundred more years will go by before the killing and the hatred stops, by then, we will have accepted that Capitalism does not work, if anyone is still here that is.
As they say in Ireland, to the Asylum Seeker and struggling immigrant 'may our giving hand never wither'
So what you're reaslly saying is we're all too stupid to do our own research. It irks me that politicians think we just get our world view from the press. Speaking for myself, I am perfectly capable of forming my own opinions, backed by factual evidence, something you seem unable to do most of the time. As to your views on asylum seekers, they coincide pretty well with mine. Politicians and journalists, with their own agendas, report with spin. It's what they do, so the sensible seeker of fact finda other sources.
However, and I'm assuming you'll blindly back Brown the same way you did Blair, your own government is largely responsible for the current climate of fear. Successive Home Secretaries have used immigrants as scapegoats for all our problems. Clean your own house first.
Capitalism does not work
Mr Kelly, you have a website, and that website has the suffix "com". It may interest you to know that "com" is an abbreviation of "commercial".
Why are you using the fruits of a failed economic system? Surely there's a parallel internet (free to use, natch, but mind your tongue) in which it stands for "communist"?
If you'll permit me, I'll go a little further. Name me one capitalist democracy, just one, in the past 200 years which has gone to war against another capitalist democracy. In fact, name me one capitalist democracy in the past 200 years which has known anything other than the most amazing progress humanity has ever seen.
How on earth can you claim it doesn't work, when you have to rely upon its very fruits to make your claim?
Patrick
If the lack of a Black civic leader is evidence of a backwards racist mindset then perhaps you can tell me the name of the last Black Provost of Renfrewhsire? Or maybe the name of the last Black Lord Provost of Glasgow? Black leader of Strathclyde Regional Council? There may genuinely be names here but I am just not aware of them.
The rest of your article is less than rubbish, you fail to address the key points of illegal immigration and the Labour failure to tackle it (muddying it with legal immigration), the open border policy imposed on us by the EU and (leaving the actual events to one side) the fact that those arrested over the events of the last couple of weeks were all doctors imported into this country when in a couple of weeks time this year's graduating class of medical students face the prospect of unemployment.
Come on Terry, I mean, all the stats in the world cannot disguise the fact that this defence is pretty weak. Lets start this by agreeing that the real problem people perceive is not the legal immigration figures you quote which I am sure are accurate but the illegal ones who by their very presence in this country are committing a criminal act. Can we do that?
Oh, and another thing, your figures are a bit of a lie as well.
Massachusetts elected their first black govenor in 300 years? Well Port Laoise elected their first black man after a wait of 451 years assuming you trace the town's history back to the garrison town formation in 1556. Does that make the Irish more racist than the yanks? And even then the Mass. population directly elected him where Adebari was elected by a 9 member town council.
Great commparison Terry, you must be feeling very proud now eh?
rumbold - Why do capitalist Australians, Irish, Italians, Poles, Indians, Pakistani's, Caribbean's etc. etc. Come here ? Why do Capitalists from Britain go to Australia, America, Canada, etc. I think it's a wee bit more complicated than your simple analysis suggests.
David Duff I posted my answer on the 'fitba, fish, Falklands post.
Mo - It's the most touchy subject there is at the minute - people are terrified to say anything remotely placatory, nothing but revenge and hatred will do at the moment. One paper carries a story ( Guardian ? ) About the letters page in the Telegraph which sees it's first two letters expressing the opinion that 'capital punishment is the thing to stop these suicide bombers' honestly. There is red mist everywhere and it's ugly.
How do your Muslim colleagues describe your intentions ?
The fight goes on.
My goodness, even by your low standards, this was a poor piece. Logical inferences supplied without argument, poor syntax and a confused jumble of ideas spewing out of you randomly.
It contains quite literally neither rhyme nor reason.
Communism/socialism is better at mass murder, death famine and starting war than capitalist democracy. (Though capitalist democracy is better at winning wars).
Socialists hate winners. That's why they hate capitalist societies.
Jim Lewis - I didn't say that you are all too stupid I said that the red top press have far too much influence, look at the sun's sales figures.
I've never 'blindly' backed anyone, lumping this Govt. in with the Tories on Asylum shows blindness on your part.
The only Labour Home Secretary that I would criticise on this matter is Reid, he would 'chop down a tree,stand on the stump and make a speech about conservation'
You clearly have no idea what goes on inside the Labour Party do you ?
Patrick - I'm sorry to have to say this but, this has the whiff of playground desperation about it.
Did the world start 200 yrs. ago ? all the people who have died at the hands of so called capitalist democracies ( America ) had it coming didn't they Patrick.
'Amazing progress' that is a shameful analysis when you look at the extreme wealth and poverty which exists in capitalist countries, what kind of people are you Patrick ?
RFS _ I think the American situation stands up OK with the proviso that we are not perfect, far from it.
The rest of this post is stomach churning racism, you are some piece of work.
RFS - You are in danger of getting cut off, go back to the bit where I said that 7 yrs. ago the local school had only two black children, his.
So 8 yrs. ago there were no black kids, just like Mass. Eh - are you following this at all ? You are causing me concern again with your simplistic analysis of this, it's what I would expect from a six yr. old.
jackart - so you have decided that communism is better at starting wars and capitalism is better at finishing them, you're wasted on us.
You might want to consider though that we would all be speaking German if it hadn't been for a certain communist country.
frank & sisters - I don't know what you mean, please write again explaining about the "photo of my PC and the link of my blog"
Terry, asylum seekers eat children, swans and add to our carbon footprint. Thats a fact it said so in the Daily Mail :-()
You know very well that at least the last three Home Secretaries have played the immigration card. As for blindly backing, you have stedfastly refused to call Blair an out and out liar. That's backing him blindly.
And yes, I have some idea of what goes on inside the Labour Party. You pretend to be socilaists while following pretty closely Topy doctrine. It's fairly obvious really. The Labour Party has died. It is no longer alive. It is a late Labour Party. When this bastion of free speech can manhandle octogenarians with every right to be at conference, when it takes bribes from Bernie Ecclestone, when its leader can pretend that he knew nothing of the party's largest single campaign donation, when the same man can stifle the intelligence community's reservations about intelligence reports on Iraq, when it can publish 12 year old intel reports on the same (filched from a student's PHd paper), and when it can promote privatisation of public services, and yet attract no criticism from the likes of you, it is no longer the Labour Party, but an impostor. If you had any real pretensions to socialism, you would do the honourable thing. You won't, though, because you're far from stupid. You know you're unelectable outside the umbrella of the party that the Sun readers vote for.
"Why do capitalist Australians, Irish, Italians, Poles, Indians, Pakistani's, Caribbean's etc. etc. Come here ? Why do Capitalists from Britain go to Australia, America, Canada, etc. I think it's a wee bit more complicated than your simple analysis suggests."
Fair enough; I worded that poorly. My point was more that they are not flocking to countries like Cuba and North Korea. Interesting to see that you think that Stalin's Russia was a communist country.
Did the world start 200 yrs. ago ?
No, but The Wealth of Nations was written about then. There has been not a *single case* of a country, following the principles outlined therin, failing to thrive.
all the people who have died at the hands of so called capitalist democracies ( America ) had it coming didn't they Patrick.
First off, why "so-called"? Are you saying that the US is neither capitalist nor democratic?
Secondly, it is desperately sad when innocents are killed by anyone. But in a war, awful things happen, and we must of course try to prevent them in the future. Therefore I once again invite you to name a war waged by one capitalist democracy against another capitalist democracy.
If you cannot, you must concede that capitalist democracy in an amazingly efficient vehicle when it comes to promoting peace.
'Amazing progress' that is a shameful analysis when you look at the extreme wealth and poverty which exists in capitalist countries
I see nothing wrong with extreme wealth. Extremely wealthy people spend extremely large amounts of money, which keeps thousands of people in work. I wouldn't thank you for a £10,000 suit myself, but I certainly wouldn't close down the factory making them just because I disapprove of their clients.
Extreme poverty, on the other hand, distresses me greatly. However, in China the poorest 10% control just 1.8% of GDP. In the UK, that value is 2.1%. In France it's 3%. (Figures from the World Factbook).
Therefore, we can conclude that communism makes the poor both absolutely and relatively poorer. Why would you wish that fate on those least able to support themselves?
Patrick
If it hadn't been for the fact that the US and even the hard pressed UK were supplying desperately needed arms to the Soviets, they would have folded. Grandfather. Artic convoys, sunk 1944 etc...
Your analysis is weak, terry, and you, I'm afraid are an idiot.
anon - 'Asylum seekers diet' that's what makes them such an exotic, colourful addition to our drab society.
Jim - I trust you feel better after that - are you Richard Littlejohn in disguise ? as I've said before, you clearly know nothing about what happens inside the Labour Party.
Rumbold - the point would have still been the same had I just said Russia but I don't shirk from calling it communist.
My point is that no country is perfect if you took a dirt poor American with no health care and no education etc. They would be better off in Cuba wouldn't they.
Patrick - If you mean countries like Britain, America, France etc. thriving then you are being either silly or disingenuous. I can take you from any point in Britain and show you squalor, ignorance, poverty, racism, exploitation, America locks up more people than any other country and Britain's main growth industry is prison construction. If your conscience allows you to describe that as a country which is thriving then you are welcome to it.
I meant that America calls itself democratic but it's corrupt from the very top, it's not democratic.
About capitalist democracies fighting ? I don't share your description of democracy, I know though that there is quite a list of what you call capitalist democracies invading and waging war on other countries.
Extreme wealth ? As I said Patrick glib and shameful, you can't defend the greed and exploitation so you descend to this farce, with your help the lot of the poor and the 3rd. world will always be starvation, ignorance and disease. What a lovely fellow you are.
From these figures in your last para. you can conclude what you like but you look like a charlatan.
Jackart - Mother Russia saved our skins, eat your heart out.
Councillor,
Great points. I've yet to meet an asylum seeker that came her to 'sponge' and I've been worked with refugees and asylum seekers since the home office started dispersing to Glasgow.
GCWR are doing some great work at the moment with the refugee community. We'e not party political and you're input would be valued.
Mags
I can take you from any point in Britain and show you squalor, ignorance, poverty, racism, exploitation
I don't doubt it. But in some other countries you don't even have to take me to see it - it's everywhere. I was on holiday in Bulgaria earlier this year, and one of my friends was ridiculed for being black. Everyone in the place thought is was funny. You *simply don't get* attitudes like that it the west.
Britain's main growth industry is prison construction
You say that like it's a bad thing. Crimes are committed by prisoners on early release every day.
I meant that America calls itself democratic but it's corrupt from the very top,
Freedom house doesn't agree. Have you got an equally-respectable source which says different?
though that there is quite a list of what you call capitalist democracies invading and waging war on other countries.
Yes, like Nazi Germany. But that's not what I asked for - I asked for an example of one capitalist democracy invading another. Have you got any?
As I said Patrick glib and shameful
Glib? I'm the one backing my arguments up with numbers and logic. And shameful? You're the imperialist (the territorial claims of the Viceroyalty of the River Plate must be upheld) who would make the poor even poorer (check the relative and absolute income of the poorest in communist China compared to the capitalist-democratic UK)
From these figures in your last para. you can conclude what you like but you look like a charlatan.
The only possible conclusion is that communism makes the poor even poorer, I'd have thought.
with your help the lot of the poor and the 3rd. world will always be starvation, ignorance and disease.
Only until these unhappy countries embrace the rule of law and liberal capitalist democracy. Again, I invite you to name a nation which has done so and has not subsequently gone from strength to strength.
Patrick
Tsk Tsk councillor did you get lost on the way to the polling station?
Whilst I applaud you for not voting for that wicked Labour shower, you could at least have spoiled your paper.
Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical for you to stand as a Labour candidate when you obviously do not support the party or it's policies. No wonder you're so isolated within the Renfrewshire Labour group.
Poor Americans may well be better off in Cuba Councillor, until they ask to be allowed to elect their representatives.
rumbold - I think we have done this - I consider Cuba to be more democratic than America but before you launch into an argument on this I would direct you to past posts and comments which are numerous.
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you Terry but your comments towards me were so bizarre that I had to go and check everything again.
If we are using the proviso that we are not perfect then what were you hoping to prove by putting Mass. and the Irish town side by side? What conclusions were you hoping that people would draw? Is everyone not perfect? Or do you hold the US to a higher standard than the rest?
I am sure the layman would have read this and concluded (as I did) that you were pointing out that the Irish were more tolerant than the Americans. Yet you did not address my point about the Mass. Governor being elected in a general election as opposed to the Irish man being elected by the council. Mass. gave us a black governor through popular franchise, Port Laoise residents did not vote for this man in a straight stand up fight.
You are also in real trouble with your reasoning. Are you trying to say that Port Laoise got it's first black resident 7 years ago? I certainly took it from your post that you are implying that because this man's children were the only black kids in the school he must be. But your own post claims that "93 % have no dependants". That to me says that there is a better chance that there are quite a few black folks in that town before him but that they did not have children. What is your evidence?
And if you use the 300 years v 7 years time frame then I would want to ask "what is it about Port Laoise that was so unwelcoming for minorities for 500 years"? And again we would also ask "what is it about the West of Scotland that is so unwelcoming for minorities to public office?" You cannot have it both ways, either you are comparing two different political and cultural electoral outcomes or you are not, and if you are then you cannot just limit it to the two you define because then it becomes little more than a smear job.
And on a final point Terry I challenge you to point to anything I said in my first comment that was racist. I was very careful to ensure that I referenced the socio-economic group of Migrants; legal and illegal. It is somewhat telling that you read "asylum seeker" and think "someone with different coloured skin from myself". My brother’s best friend’s wife was an asylum seeker and she has the same colour skin as us Terry.
Emily - believe it or not I didn't vote for anyone because I was so busy working for labour that I forgot to vote.
I'm not hypocritical in the least, a party where everyone thinks the same and there is no dissent is not a political party at all, it's more like a social group, a glee club, think Boy Scouts, Blackpool September Weekend Pub Club, SSP etc.
I didn't realise I was isolated in the Labour Group I'll need to watch that.
How can a person whose life is dependent on the democratic system of election forget to vote?
Patrick - 'you don't get attitudes like that in the west' I'll leave that sticking there maybe someone else will comment.
'Crimes are committed by prisoners on early release every day' so that explains the almost 100,000 thousand in jail, does the home office know about you ?
Patrick - 'Freedom House' ? are you taking the p*** here ?
You seem to be saying that Nazi Germany was a Capitalist Democracy ! Go and lie down somewhere quite for a while. You chose to start 200 yrs. ago, why ? as I said every act of aggression by so called capitalist democracies depends on you deciding who is a democracy, consequently America can invade anyone they like because you Patrick think they are a democracy and that's OK then.
I couldn't care less about the Viceroyalty of the River Plate, are you saying that that was a consideration for Thatcher ? Why was she selling them arms, why was she all over Pinochet like a disease, wasn't he similar ? Your number crunching is a distraction designed to avoid the debate.
Your description of a country going from strength does not square with mine, unlike you I can't turn a blind eye to the evils of capitalism and the waste and misery that it causes.
RFS -
1st. Para. - I was hoping to show that we, ( all of us are making progress )
2nd. Para - I didn't say that the Irish were more tolerant, I said that it was good news that's all. Your second point taints you again.
3rd. Para - 8 yrs. Ago there were no black kids in the school and today there are many means that more asylum seekers are settling there that's all, again you see what your twisted mind wants to see.
4th para - pedantic, literal, worrying nonsense.
5th. Para - Racist, and lacking courage eh ? 'Me racist ? why, some of my best friends are etc.'
Ben - do I depend on the democratic system ? Anyway I've also forgot, car keys, house keys, birthdays, days of the week. I went to the DOC. Once about my lost memory and he asked when I had lost it and I said 'lost what' so there you are Bert no one is perfect.
"I'm not hypocritical in the least, a party where everyone thinks the same and there is no dissent is not a political party at all, it's more like a social group, a glee club, think Boy Scouts, Blackpool September Weekend Pub Club, SSP etc."
So, kind of like the Cuban Communist Party?
Terry you wont be laughing when you get eaten by an asylum seeker who is unable to get benefits thanks to New Labours cuts.
You misunderstand either deliberately or otherwise. I am not saying "I am not racist because some of my friends...". I am saying that I identified a socio-economic group that I know contains every race from white Europeans to black Africans via china. You however accused me of racism despite me making no generalisation or assumption based on someones race. A point you refuse to acknowledge because it reflects very badly on you.
Again you think you can suppress a contrary opinion by screaming racist and hoping that I will go away.
I would say that I have been called worse but then you would know that because you have been the one calling me those names
I'll leave that sticking there maybe someone else will comment.
Maybe they will, councillor. But I certainly can't think of a bar in the UK that would ridicule someone solely because of their colour of their skin. Where on Earth do you drink?
so that explains the almost 100,000 thousand in jail
It has no connection whatsoever. It merely indicates that there are a great many bad people at large because there are no prison spaces for them.
'Freedom House' ? are you taking the p*** here ?
I did ask for an "equally respectable source which says different", but you are apparently unable to provide one.
You seem to be saying that Nazi Germany was a Capitalist Democracy !
No... if you read it again, I said that there was no instance of a capitalist democracy attacking another. You responded that there were instances of them attacking other countries, which I conceded, but pointed out that those attacked were invariably undemocratic and usually engaged in acts of barbarism so shocking that we simply could not stand by and watch.
You chose to start 200 yrs. ago, why ?
Because I doubt if any nation existing before that time could be properly described as capitalist and democratic.
consequently America can invade anyone they like
Of course not. If they were to attack, say, Portugal, that would be wrong because Portugal does not threaten anyone nor does it mistreat its own citizens. Whether it is a capitalist democracy or not is irrelevant - I'm just saying that nations operating such systems have never, in human history, so behaved.
I couldn't care less about the Viceroyalty of the River Plate, are you saying that that was a consideration for Thatcher ?
I'll wager she couldn't care less either. That's perhaps why she went to war to save an indigineous people from Argentine expansionism.
Your number crunching is a distraction designed to avoid the debate.
No, it's designed to disprove your points more convincingly than mere words ever could.
the evils of capitalism and the waste and misery that it causes.
People tend to waste less when they are free to chooses the services they require and do not have those services forced upon them, regardless of need.
Finally, although I think we disagree on just about everything, can I just say that I appreciate your answers, the debate, and the forum you provide. Cheers!
Patrick
RFS - I regard you as a racist who is also too cowardly to shout it out.
Aren't you one of the Zionist racists who called me anti semitic ? All that puerile crap about the Jooooos, what next ?
Jim - was that a joke ? Whatever next.
In Britain there are four party's where argument and dissent take place, that Is Labour, Conservative and Lib. Dems. The C.P. to a lesser extent numerically is included.
The SSP, Solidarity, SNP, SWP, Nat Front etc. are not real political parties, they are a joke.
The SNP of course with Alex Salmond ( for first minister ) have more members but they are essentially a power group, most of them think the weather will improve under independence.
Anyone who thinks our political system is something to be proud of IMO is a fool.
anon - ther is logic in there somewhere, I think ?
"I regard you as a racist who is also too cowardly to shout it out. "
Ah, so we are back to the unfalsifiable theory on racism? Totally contemptible Terry and you know it, you have no ability to defend yourself so you descend into name calling.
"Aren't you one of the Zionist racists who called me anti semitic ? "
There is a school of thought that says that your attributing to me the tag of Zionist as a way of belittling me in public debate is in itself anti-Semitic so you could in this case be a self fulfilling slur.
TerryWatch has a well documented history of your twists and turns on that matter but that would be taking us off topic would it not? The topic was:
You called me a racist when I identified a socio-economic grouping that academics agree contains every race on the planet capable of long distance travel. This would seem to indicate that you consider this group to be racially homogeneous.
Who is the racist? Who first brought race into this argument? Discuss.
"Anyone who thinks our political system is something to be proud of IMO is a fool. " - If you truly enter into self parody then what will I do on my breaks?
Patrick - I'm sorry but saying that there isn't a bar etc. is silly we live in a racist society !
There are a great many bad people at large because capitalism creates that.
'Freedom House' ? Get serious.
Nazi Germany - You need to go back and read this again. There are countries which carry out acts of barbarism and are not democratic and, not only do we stand by and do nothing because they are rich we sell them arms Patrick you hypocrite !
200 yrs ago was chosen to suit your flawed argument, with one swoop you wiped out all the brutality, murder and genocide carried out in the name of capitalism, well done Patrick.
The para. Mentioning Portugal is more dissembling, the point is that America because of it's might gets to decide who is good and who is bad and consequently who can be overthrown and who can't, nice and neat eh ?
Thatcher went to war in the Falklands "to save an indigenous population from expansionism" I'm keeping this one to show people you are right out there Patrick.
Your next two points are subjective in the extreme.
Your last point beats me at last. I can't stand someone that I disagree with being civil to me, cheers.
RFS - You are accusing me of name calling ! You of all people ! I've still got your old web cuttings.
About 'Zionist' you and your 'school of thought' might be right but,
"You called me a racist" you're repeating yourself it's quite worrying,
Terry, we have been here before. Your pointless posturing. I don't delete anything I write so there is no need for you to collect evidence.
Still you avoid the main thrust of my point: either quote the sections from this comment thread that was so racist or say sorry for trying to play the race card to close down debate.
Sorry to keep repeating myself but there is clearly something you are struggling to understand here.
we live in a racist society !
I never said we didn't - just that it isn't as bad as many (indeed most) others. But as you say, it's still out there. I mean, can you imagine an Association of White Police Officers?
There are a great many bad people at large because capitalism creates that.
Have you ever heard of the Gulag? Or the Laogai? Trust me, the communists have a much better line in prison construction than we could ever muster.
'Freedom House' ? Get serious.
For the third time, direct me somewhere better. Unless you can't.
There are countries which carry out acts of barbarism and are not democratic and, not only do we stand by and do nothing because they are rich we sell them arms
There are, and you won't find me defending that unless in an extreme situation it could be described as the lesser of two evils. Cite a specific instance and I'll respond more specifically.
200 yrs ago was chosen to suit your flawed argument,
Prove me wrong by naming a capitalist democracy in existence prior to 1807. Unless you can't.
with one swoop you wiped out all the brutality, murder and genocide carried out in the name of capitalism,
So we capitalists havn't done a single thing wrong in the past two centuries? Crikey, even I wouldn't go that far...
the point is that America because of it's might gets to decide who is good and who is bad and consequently who can be overthrown and who can't,
Who the Americans decide to invade is up to them. Whether we support them (Iraq), stand aside (Vietnam) or frustrate them (Canada) is up to us. What more do you propose we do?
Your next two points are subjective in the extreme.
That's your rebuttal? (sings) "We'll keep the white flag flyyy-ing..."
I can't stand someone that I disagree with being civil to me
No problem! It's no fun debating with someone who agrees with you, and secondly you don't learn anything or have your own opinions tested.
Cheers,
Patrick
RFS - Do you think that I'm about to do what I'm told by the like of you ? You've not been paying attention.
I have been dealing with you for long enough to form an opinion about you, it might not please you but that, believe it or not doesn't bother me. You're a saloon bar racist, an Alf Garnett, god you even gave us a version of 'some of my best friends are etc. - pathetic.
I read in a blog recently that the ( misguided ) Police response to the Airport attack was to tell " Whitey " to behave. Now what faint hearted racist could that have been ?
Patrick - what goes before 'freedom House' is rhetorical, my point is of course that it's heavily biased, I don't need to say anything else.
You are being pedantic about these countries, try the middle east - we sell arms to regimes which carry out public executions etc. During the Falklands war, workers on the Clyde refused to handle weapon parts bound for Argentina and were threatened with the sack.
I don't have to name a capitalist democracy I say that capitalism has been slaughtering people for a lot longer than 200 yrs. And again I say your idea of democracy does not square with mine.
You think it's OK to invade who they like, and I don't we should not back them when they are wrong.
Most of what you say is subjective but those two points were just not worth bothering with. Can you be briefer ?
I'd love to be briefer Terry, but you talk so much rubbish that virtually every line's worth fisking! :)
Patrick
"I read in a blog recently that the ( misguided ) Police response to the Airport attack was to tell " Whitey " to behave. Now what faint hearted racist could that have been ? "
Actually, if you read the comment and understood it you would have realsied that what I was pointing out was Rae repeating a line fed to him by someone earlier in the day. In all the times that we have been "warned" there have never been violent backlashes yet we have people exploiting these incidents to advance their own racial agendas. So the answer to your question above would be "Multi-Millionare Mohammed Sarwar MP".
RFS - This doesn't wash you are guilty as hell.
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