The above is the title of a song referred to as the 'real' American anthem, sung all over that great country in schools, community halls and on picket lines, written by a guy called Woody Guthrie.
The song, along with many others is frowned on by the establishment because Guthrie was a communist and union organiser who agitated throughout the forties and fifties through the medium of music, to great effect. A true American hero, someone who would have been hated by Bush and the crooks who now run the USA, while watching Bush the other night telling us how great America was and how they were bringing peace and democracy to other lands I wondered what Woody Guthrie would have thought now, today, about his beloved country America.
Native Americans ( Indians ) have a life expectancy which is 8 yrs less than the average, 90 thousand are homeless or in terrible housing conditions, unemployment for them ( the real Americans ) stands at 46 % and up to 65 % in places, drug addiction, alcoholism and suicide are rife, this is the land of the free !
It ain't beer and skittles for some others either, 37 million below the poverty line ( up 5 million under the crook Dubya) 25% of blacks and 22% of Hispanics live below the poverty line, for whites it's 8.6% - 46 million have no health insurance - 82,000 homeless in L.A. alone - 18,000 children under 5 yrs homeless in New York alone.
America is now the world's number one jailer - 565 out of 100,000 in prison over 2 million in total - black males 8 times more likely to be in prison - 1 in 10 black males in jail or probation or on parole.
Is this the America that poor people want to get to ? or is it this America ? The town of Rancho Santa Fe California, average income $100,000 per yr. average house price $1.7million and, somewhere in America there are 269 billionaires.
People still ask me why I'm a socialist and why for instance I believe that Cuba is a better more decent society and I ask again, why is America so afraid of Cuba, the above facts should give a clue.
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Most bloggers link to statistics.
Some like equality. Some like freedom. You can't have both.
Terry, where do you stand as a socialist on the Iraq fiasco. A labour government having dug itself into a hole in a war without any end in sight?
How would you resolve the problems out there, problems that a Labour government caused in the main by backing the war.
Also and this is one I cant get a straight answer out of any politician about is how if we do leave, do we ensure that a bloodbath does not take place?
Sorry none of this relates to either the US or Cuba really.
Sid,
I am glad that you raised the issue of the Native Americans. Many of their problems seem to be caused by successive US governments giving them the right to operate casinos. It might provide jobs, but it seems to lock them into a cycle of gambling, drink and drugs. This is one area of itself that the USA should feel ashamed of.
A minor point; Cuba has an estimated prison population of 297 per 100,000, well above the average of 150. It is no paradise.
Why do Cubans risk their lives on rafts in order to get to the USA, but not the other way around?
jackart - yes you can.
Sid - 'Iraq' my position is clear I opposed the war and I still do.
'Solve the problem' ? that's harder, an elected Iraqi government must be restored which has the respect of all Iraqi's and governs for all, America is putting down long term roots in Iraq and that must be opposed, it's about oil of course, The UN has to be more forceful and dictate what happens in the future.
My answer to the last question is a painful one. To ensure there is no bloodbath we can't leave it's as simple as that, we can't go until there is long term stability overseen by the UN. American influence has to be challenged because Iran looks as if it is going to be next, again for oil.
I'm hoping for a new and better Middle East with a new Labour leader and anyone but the crook Bush.
Rumbold - The American Indian has been persecuted for longer than they have had access to Casino's but I take your point.
Where did the Cuban prison estimates come from ?
'Risking lives on rafts' This goes on all over the world, I thought I had answered that, which one of the two Americas do they want ? Do the immigrants you refer to know about Trailer Park America ? Would you want to live in the bad USA that I described ?
Have it your way, Tel.
Can we have links to sources for your statistics...
jackart - lazy as well as thick - go and do your own research.
1. Why do Cubans leave in the first place?
2. Why don't they go back once they see your trailer park hell?
3. Aren't trailer park people the working classes. The very people who you, as a Socialist, should be championing.
4.Why are so many N.A. Indians in such straits? Statistics are meaningless without examples and explanations. Similarly why don't you tell us where the statistics are from. Its very hard to find stats just using the numbers given. You on the other hand I am assuming are quoting from a reliable document you have to hand. Surely telling us your source (if it's a good one) would be more convincing?
5. Why are high prison rates bad? It might just mean that the police are good at catching people and the judiciary good at putting them away behind bars. After all shouldn't you put a criminal in prison if he breaks the law?
6. Why are so many blacks in prison? Is it because they commit more crimes? (Yes I am aware that some judiciaries are racist but one can discount the idea of so many of them being racist)
7. Why are so many blacks and hispanics under the poverty line? You tell us. You're good at quoting facts, not so much at explaining them.
8. Why does having billionaires matter? Are you jealous? Billionaires actually help because they put money into the economy which will filter down to the poorest. And indeed many are charitable- look at Bill Gates. Not to mention that often they provide jobs and industries that might not otherwise be there.
Some answers please Tel.
My estimates come from a department run by your party:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf
I should have pointed out that they put the US prison population at close to 700 per 100,000. My apologies.
In my previous post, I did not mean to imply that the Native Americans had it easy pre-casinos. Far from it; their land was systematically stolen from them, with Britain failing to protect all those Native Americans who fought for us against the rebels. My argument, which you accepted, was simply that casinos have locked them into a seemingly endless cycle of despair, when the casinos were supposed to be the Native Americans way out.
"an elected Iraqi government must be restored"
They have one at the moment and if memory serves it is the first time they have ever had one. So we cannot "restore" it because it never existed.
And without links to your stats we must assume that you have made it all up again.
To jackart,
No point baiting Terry over links / sources because he doesn't do them. It's the virtual manifestation if his ill-informed adolescent politics. Were he to try and source / verify everything most of his views would be shown to be palpable nonsense, hence the dismissal.
Even if we take his stats at face value, the fact that literally millions of people risk life and limb to get into the US every year (unlike, say, Cuba) illustrates that Terry's grasp on human nature and international politics is as flawed as that of his left-wing predecessors. Mother Russia anyone...
"Where did the Cuban prison estimates come from ?" (Tel)
"Can we have links to sources for your statistics... (Jackart)
"jackart - lazy as well as thick - go and do your own research. (Tel)
Only in Terryworld..........
By the way Terry, stop talking bollocks. (What am I saying?) Woody Guthrie was neither a communist nor a union organiser.
1/ I thought I had answered that, they think America is Dallas & J R Ewing, they don't see the homeless, the drug addicts, the murders etc etc etc.
2/ America is happy to keep them and call them political refugees. Anyway you can't get from America to Cuba have you forgotten that, the mighty USA is so afraid of tiny little Cuba that it bans it's citizens from travelling there, what does that tell you ?
3/ I have never attacked trailer park people or any other Americans who are living miserable lives, my criticism is of America and capitalism for creating such a wretched system for people to live in.
4/ The plight of the Native American Indians is well known and you are an apologist for those who caused the disaster to happen and still perpetuate it, you have no shame, nor do the crooks who run the USA.
5/ High prison rates mean a society with serious problems. America's prison rates continue to soar because the country is a cesspit of crime and inequality, life is as cheap for the poor in America as it is in any 3rd. world country.
6/ So blacks commit more crime, is it a genetic thing ? Only a racist would say that without explaining why, you don't want to consider why do you ?
7/ There are so many Blacks and Hispanics below the poverty line because America is a country which discriminates against, and exploits people on grounds of race.
8/ Billionaire is just a word to outline the gross inequality of American society, obscene wealth and obscene poverty side by side, it's shameful, Americans ought to stop calling themselves Christians, they are about as far away from Christianity as you can get.
Rumbold - I don't usually check sources but I did this time and of course you are right but I would point out that the info. on Cuba is 10 yrs old and may well not have been put there by my party. However I accept the status of Nils Christie who provided the information.
Using that site we find that you are more than twice as likely to be locked up in America as in Cuba, 'lies, damn lies and statistics' ( Disraeli ) sometimes stats. can be used by clever people to say almost anything.
The Casino situation only applies to some but not all Indian Tribes and the rest are as bad off as ever it's America's shame, a country which preaches freedom and democracy treating it's own indigenous population in this way.
RFS - Yes a better govt. Without the malign influence of the American crooks who are after their oil.
You seem to be saying that I make up figures like 80,000 homeless in L.A. And 18,000 under five's homeless in New York, I've said to you before you seem to be very childish in these matters. You seem to argue like a primary kid, and a naive one at that, or is there another reason for this behaviour ?
The post made by me at 1.11 pm on 14/06/07 was for Jan Tregeagle.
You're the one making unsupported assertions. You're demonstrably both lazy and thick (and revoltingly fat too). You write untested assertions unsupported by references, which is why we all jump on your posts with such glee. They are an inverted pyramid of piffle (thanks Boris). you don't have much going for you, do you?
Oh and for the record, you havn't answered Rumbold's question of why, if America's such a toilet, and cuba's a worker's paradise, why are cubans (and the denizens of other socialist societies) dying trying to get to the USA and not the other way around?
People vote with their feet, evidence more telling than your partisan prattle, Tel.
paul morgan - well, that's me sorted then isn't it ! what a brilliant analysis, where have you been hiding ?
Jim - You are at it, no- one's that thick. I sometimes give sources if I think it's worthwhile, same as everyone else, if I say there are 80,000 homeless in L.A. no, I'm not sourcing it, try and figure out why.
You must be talking about another Woody Guthrie, or are you back on the gargle ?
"You seem to be saying that I make up figures"
Nope, what I am saying is that without the backup links to sites publishing these figures we have to assume that you have invented them. It is called citing your sources and it is the cornerstone of academic research. Everyone does it and you should think about trying it.
Basically if you cite your source we can check it, see if the source itself seems accurate or if there are conflicting sources with differing numbers. We can then conduct a peer review. Nothing childish here, just basic intellectual rigour of how we operate.
Jackart - You might jump on my posts but you don't seem very keen on refuting what I say, 80,000 people homeless in L.A. And 18,000 children under five homeless in New York shouldn't be that difficult to check, should it ?
I have answered rumbolds question.
RFS - sanctimonious, pompous drivel, you don't source everything but the difference is I couldn't care less, I don't need to, who appointed you as rule maker ? Childish arrogance.
Bearing in mind that the weather is nice when it is not hurricaning, and Cllr Terry says Cuba is a paradise, and I know at least one person who has been on a diving holiday there, I thought I might consider emmigrating there.
The first problem I ran in to was that even google thinks this is a crazy idea:
"Did you mean to search for: cuba immigration" it keeps saying pointedly, when both searches bring up references for getting out of there or analyses of people trying to leave.
I've had a cursory sort, but getting in doesn't seem to be something the even the Cuban government even thinks is hugely likely, and so there is no handy guide to 'your new life in Cuba'.
However it seems quite possible to rent property there and if I marry a Cuban I can get permanent residency. For some reason I haven't yet discovered, Canada seems to have been given special permission to develop properties in Cuba, especially anything to do with leisure and tourism.
So, in so far as Cuba might get rich, it will do it by servicing rich tourists. If it has any sense it will also set up secure banking and become a tax shelter. This would make it like Jersey, only Socialist. It might just work....
"You must be talking about another Woody Guthrie, or are you back on the gargle ? "
Nope, not unless two Woody Guthries wrote the same song.
By the way, 80,00 homelessness in LA? Balls. There are roughly 80,000 homelesness in LA COUNTY, you dimwit. Look it up. While you're at it, see if you can find the difference. 28% of California's population lives in this area.
"1/ I thought I had answered that, they think America is Dallas & J R Ewing, they don't see the homeless, the drug addicts, the murders etc etc etc."
Are you admitting therefore that Cuba pales before the view of a tv show like "Dallas"?
"2/ America is happy to keep them and call them political refugees. Anyway you can't get from America to Cuba have you forgotten that, the mighty USA is so afraid of tiny little Cuba that it bans it's citizens from travelling there, what does that tell you ?"
Ah yes, because its so easy to get out of Cuba. I'm sure they all take those little boats just so they can have a lovely lark whilst they paddle across. Note of course that the Cubans would be refugees not citizens. Unless they take up citizenship which rather intimates that they want to be American.
"3/ I have never attacked trailer park people or any other Americans who are living miserable lives, my criticism is of America and capitalism for creating such a wretched system for people to live in."
For now thats roughly acceptable.
"4/ The plight of the Native American Indians is well known and you are an apologist for those who caused the disaster to happen and still perpetuate it, you have no shame, nor do the crooks who run the USA."
So I'm an apolagist for asking you why N.A. Indians are in dire straits. You'll excuse me if I ask, "what the hell?". There is no link between my question and some kind of apolagy for some of the awful treatment N.A. Indians have suffered. All you're doing is trying to slur me.
"5/ High prison rates mean a society with serious problems. America's prison rates continue to soar because the country is a cesspit of crime and inequality, life is as cheap for the poor in America as it is in any 3rd. world country."
Umm, they don't always have to mean that because low prison rates can also mean a society with huge crime problems. Lots of convictions can be a good sign. Certainly it means there is lots of crime but I have to ask you why that turns you against America or why you think there is so much crime? Because lets be honest, I don't see you ranting about the level of crime in say, Zimbabwe.
"6/ So blacks commit more crime, is it a genetic thing ? Only a racist would say that without explaining why, you don't want to consider why do you ?"
Tel you said yourself that there are more blacks in prison on average. Does that make you a racist too under your bizarre notion of understanding. I shall quote myself, "Is it because they commit more crimes?" Did I mention genetics? Umm. No I didn't. You did. Perhaps thats your racist subconcious at work there Tel. Note that that claim has just as much backing as your claim I'm racist (i.e. none). So would you care to answer the question Tel- why are more blacks in prison? (And I don't just mean genetics as thats nonsense, I'd imagine the answer to be based on social issues but you tell me.)
"7/ There are so many Blacks and Hispanics below the poverty line because America is a country which discriminates against, and exploits people on grounds of race."
So its all the fault of the evil capitsalists? Could there be other reasons? Aside fro or as well as?
"8/ Billionaire is just a word to outline the gross inequality of American society, obscene wealth and obscene poverty side by side, it's shameful, Americans ought to stop calling themselves Christians, they are about as far away from Christianity as you can get."
Inequal yes. However you have ignored the possibility of billionaires helping the economy (and hence helping people), of billionaires employing people and of charity.
"you don't source everything "
Yes I do, and I cite my sources so people can see where I got my information from and challenge me on it if they wish.
Pompous arrogance is just putting up figures and expecting everyone to tell you how clever you are.
And I am not a rule maker, we have been over this time and again Terry. I am simply asking you to abide by a set of conventions on the blogosphere that is common to all. By ignoring this you leave yourself open to accusations that you are just making stuff up.
Just trying to help. So go on, call me a child again, you are winning so many fans that way.
I'm not denying the accuracy of your statistics, but it is easy to Link them.
For the record, London with a similar population has 50,000 Homeless, but hard-core Rough sleepers account for just 532. Yes 532 though there's more in the summer (I wonder why?).
So your use of statistics, along with that by homeless support agencies is designed to maximise the scale of the problem in the eyes of the public, (who naturally equate "Homeless" with "Rough Sleepers") to secure jobs for the boys and public money.
For the record, I slept rough for 3 months. It ain't that bad
Anon - Where did Cllr. Terry say Cuba was a paradise ? Your second two paragraphs are just tired propaganda, my American relatives took a long number of years to get citizenship, had they been suitable to exploit as political refugees or be prepared to fight in Vietnam they would have walked in and been accepted right away.
I would expect anyone willing to invest in Cuba would be welcomed but the USA bully would then deal with them.
Cuba is doing well considering it's situation with it's terrified giant of a neighbour.
Jim - OK 80,000 homeless in L A county would be fine wouldn't it ?in the richest country in history, glad to see you keeping your standards up.
"You don't scare me I'm sticking to the Union" 'The Union Maid' (Woody Guthrie) you eejit.
Jan - any chance of shortening your comments ?
1/ Cuba is a poor country, people have an impression of America which is false, how many would want to go if they knew they were heading for poverty and exploitation.
2/ See question 1
3/ OK
4/ Why don't you tell us then what the 'home of the free and land of the brave' has done to it's Native People ? I don't need to slur you, anyone reading what you say can spot you a mile away.
5/ Zimbabwe, has not appointed itself the worlds policeman, Zimbabwe does not export peace, justice and democracy to countries who disagree with it, countries who usually have oil.
6/ American racism is a fact, more blacks are in prison because they commit more crimes. You finally mention 'social issues' black exploitation, poor education, unemployment etc. welcome aboard.
7/ Exactly, it is the fault of Capitalism unless you have another theory.
8/ I thought I explained I quoted billionaires to emphasise the injustice, would it be easier for you to grasp if I just said rich and poor ?
Answer the question Terry? Why are so many Cubans willing to risk their lifes to leave Cuba and why won't the Castros like them emigrate?
RFS - I'm not going to be told what to do by someone like you, people debate / argue all the time without pathetic requests to continually say where they got an opinion from, I can put up with you and your crew's accusations no bother, in fact I quite enjoy them.
You might be surprised to know how many friends I've made since I disturbed the bag of reactionary nonentities who keep attacking me, how many were there at the last count, let me see, out of tens of thousands of readers there seems to be a hard core of no more than a dozen who keep lining up to have their A**** kicked.
Jackart - perhaps you really did miss my point, I was trying to highlight the flaws in the country which insists it's the greatest ever in history, and is in fact the most powerful despite being scared of tiny wee Cuba.
You must be a real hard case right enough, I've also slept rough and it was hellish.
C4 - you are living testimony to the power of CIA propaganda, why are the Americans so paranoid/terrified of Cuba that they will not let their own people go there and they will punish anyone who does ? I think that's a good question unless it's all Cuban propaganda perhaps.
I agree, there is a hardcore element which gets his arse handed to him with every post. But it is not a commenter.
One can disagree with the US boycott of Cuba without believing that Cuba is a free and happy society. The US has many problems (as do all countries), but at least Americans can elect their lawmakers and leaders. In Cuba, one cannot. I do not expect you to cite sources every time, but it would be nice to see a link to an article about free and fair Cuban elections from a reputable source.
"Jan - any chance of shortening your comments ?"
Not really as cutting stuff would remove fairly large parts of the arguement. I just use big posts rather than multiple small ones.
"1/ Cuba is a poor country, people have an impression of America which is false, how many would want to go if they knew they were heading for poverty and exploitation."
Not answering the question. Some do live the Dallas lifestyle (your hated billionaires for a start). To leave Cuba there has to be no possibility of gaining the Dallas lifestyle there. So answer me- is Cuba naff in the minds of these refugees compared to Dallas, a lifestyle which at least some in the US have.
"2/ See question 1"
Which means what? They don't leave because they are too poor? Well rafts are pretty cheap to make. Proper answer would be nice.
"4/ Why don't you tell us then what the 'home of the free and land of the brave' has done to it's Native People ? I don't need to slur you, anyone reading what you say can spot you a mile away."
Ummm...well disenfranchising them, stealing their land, giving them diseases and shooting them comes to mind. Oh and discrimination in the form of lots of naff Westerns. Got a beef with that description?
Ah you don't need to slur me. Could you please give me a few examples of my writing where it is obvious that I'm a racist? Because as I pointed out, asking why N.A. Indians have it bad isn't racist. It is a question and contains no slur, attack or intimation.
"5/ Zimbabwe, has not appointed itself the worlds policeman, Zimbabwe does not export peace, justice and democracy to countries who disagree with it, countries who usually have oil."
Ah so really you don't care about the statistics, you care about the hypocrisy.
"6/ American racism is a fact, more blacks are in prison because they commit more crimes. You finally mention 'social issues' black exploitation, poor education, unemployment etc. welcome aboard."
That seems roughly fair aside froma few facotrs- exploitation is hardly that high and sadly there is a history of violence and crime (partially born out of unemployment etc.).
"7/ Exactly, it is the fault of Capitalism unless you have another theory."
Well theories like: illegal immigrants or social custom of crime come to mind (of course the crime thing only applies to some). That and the fact that its only recently that such numbers of Hispanics and the civil rights movement have occurred whearas the white have had generations.
"8/ I thought I explained I quoted billionaires to emphasise the injustice, would it be easier for you to grasp if I just said rich and poor ?"
But where is the injustice if one man works for his billions? Or makes them because he is astute. Surely we should applaud that rather than stick the able and unable on the same level.
"C4 - you are living testimony to the power of CIA propaganda"
What? For asking you to answer my question?
Hi Terry
'let me see, out of tens of thousands of readers there seems to be a hard core of no more than a dozen who keep lining up to have their A**** kicked.'
ever wondered how of these thousands many might merely be watching for the pleasure of seeing you miss?
Stoping changing the question and give everyone a straight answer. If Cuba is such a free and fair country, why aren't ordinary Cubans allowed to leave the country then?
C4 - there are thousands of Cubans all over the world.
Why is America so scared of Cuba that it won't let it's citizens travel there ?
scunnered - yes
rumbold - I believe that Cuba is the equal of any society as far as freedom and happiness is concerned. I have said often that Cuba is a more democratic country than Britain or the USA and I stand by that. I don't feel the need to provide you with articles I've been involved with Cuba for long enough to be satisfied with my position.
Cuba is not perfect but, considering it's situation with it's hostile neighbour it is a heroic country.
RFS - once again if you say so, it must etc. etc.
Jan - this is the last exchange I don't have the time to answer your many points, if they were more challenging I would have to but I'm afraid it's rather sterile.
You continue to think like Willie Loman if you want, you are being conned, just like the Cubans who think they are heading for a sugar bowl, getting to Florida means you have landed in a place where life is as cheap as anywhere in the world.
Why does America the worlds greatest ever super power not allow it's citizens to visit Cuba ? surely if it's that bad ?
"I don't feel the need to provide you with articles I've been involved with Cuba for long enough to be satisfied with my position."
Fair enough, but if you wish to convince others, you should provide links. After all, nobody expects you to link to everything you say, but the issue of Cuba is such a perennial one on your blog that linking to some evidence would be nice, so that you could then argue that Cuba is a free society with more authority.
Terry, You say you are a socialist, why dont you join permatan' a real socialist who decided not to go the easy way for a political future. You choose to say you are a socialist when in fact your leader is more like thatcher than cameron.Your mob destroyed paisley, yet you prefer to talk about cuba'. You dare associate yourself with american indians, you must have forgotten that they were honest and oppressed, your mob are the oppressors. Like I said if you are a socialist join sheridans party instead of trying to carve a political future for you and your daughter (true colours after she lost) who is a loser like you.
Yes you have, but that doesn't make it true. You have failed dismally to answer the simplest of questions, to whit, how can an election be an election without a choice of candidate? Making a statement you can't substantiate is just beating your gums.
As to the idiotic question you keep posing in order to avoid answering any, America isn't scared of Cuba, but it steadfastly refuses to deal with it on several gorunds, all of which you already know. If you took your head out of your jacksy long enough, you'd know that there is a movement within Congress which is growing, urging a rethink of trade talks between the two nations. In fact, delegations have already met. NOw, I happen to think the travel embargo is a bit silly, but I am not daft enough to use words like 'scared'. You are, but that suits your style of debate. Did I say debate? silly me.
Tel, You remind me of those pinkos in the 50's & 60's trotting off to the USSR, ready to sing its praises, but certain to bring their own toilet roll.
Do you regret the fall of communism in Europe?
Cheers Tel, nothing inspires my confidence in your arguements like your ability to not answer the questions and insult me at the same time. As a taxpayer and member of the public can I just say how delighted I am to see that when we shell out for Councillors like you we get nothing but the best for our money.
In other news could you actually answer the question C4 and I keep putting to you in this comments thread? You know, the one about why Cubans have to get to America by raft rather than taking the plane or boat. Its not like Castro is afraid of anything is he?
In other news you do realise that some of the Cubans are, umm, political exiles right?
Terry,
If it was not for the amount of laughter you bring for your bloggers I would suggest that you consider your position as a councillor, I almost said politician. You are a dangerous person, you shout back at people you disagree with, you are a racist (anti jew)you should not be considered as a councillor.WHY DO PEOPLE VOTE FOR YOU? (I think I have found the answer to the Buckfast consumption, councillor kelly supplies gallons to his constituents the evening before the election to ensure victory.) Sorry, I was being as stupid as you, I am serious about your position as a councillor though, I think you should stick to blogging and forget about being a councillor. You are more fun as a blogger and pure shite as a councillor. You and your wee lassie should go back to the buckie and give us all a break. Try Glasgow survival.com or similar. It is more in your line.
Rumbold - The issue of Cuba is one of the most talked/written about political subjects of the day, for every article/source I quote, those who are desperate to see Cuba fail will find contrary articles to quote against me.
I've been there before and it's a sterile business, I'm happy with my position.
anon - a wise decision to hide your identity.
Jim Lewis - After all the mindless abuse and ignorant ranting you get something right - you called yourself 'silly'
Jackart - can you not at least try to say something stimulating, have you ever seen poverty and squalor in the capitalist West ?
Do I regret etc. - Yes
Jan - I didn't set out to insult you but I sometimes retaliate, I can't guarantee to say what you want me to say, that's tough on you I suppose.
Cuba is no different when it comes to who can leave and who can come in, try getting in to America if you have had a past of left wing political involvement. I don't know if I mentioned it to you but there are thousands of Cubans all over the world, how did they manage that ? Jan, you are being lied to by experts.
Political exiles ? Yes look at Florida (get off the plane, get in your car and, don't stop!)these people were the gangsters, drug dealers, pornographers etc. whom Castro got rid of, that's why they and their families hate him so much, that's why America calls them political exiles, they would shoot you dead for $5 look at Miami.
anon - if you feel like this, it must be a struggle for you to hide the way you do.
Tel if you didn't set out to insult me then why on earth did you claim my arguements were not challenging enough (despite you not still having answered bits) and call me a racist?
As for Cuba, well going off on a bash America tangent doesn't help. Cuba doesn't allow a lot of people out, hence the rafts. Why is this? What exactly ounts as a left wing backround though? I think they'd be fine with a CND member unless you happened to have say, been involved with Sandanistas or some such. Hvae you any links or horror stories you could tell us to illuminate.
My dear fellow you cannot target all Cuban political exiles as criminals. For instance my friend cannot go to Cuba. He however is not a pornographer, drug dealer or anything else. Indeed are you suggesting that Britain deport drug dealers and pornographers? Or that naything is wrong with drugs and porn peoples private lives should surely remain that way- private).
Indeed you call some gangsters. Can I expect to see your support for a law whearby criminals are to be deported at gunpoint?
You Regret the fall of Communism in Europe?
Do you know what a Totalitarian state is like? Do you know how many people were murdered in slave labour camps in the USSR and their empire and still are in North Korea? Do you know what the fear of the 3am Knock is? Thankfully we don't.
Read some Solzhenitsyn a man tortured for eight years for criticizing Stalin in private.
You are beyond the pale, Terry. You're evil and you think that mass murder, oppression and genocide are acceptable (because that is what communism meant).
A bit of income inequality in the west justifies such terror?
You disgust me.
Did you hear the one where Terry Kelly, the anti-racist insults Cuban Americans?
"Yes look at Florida (get off the plane, get in your car and, don't stop!)these people were the gangsters, drug dealers, pornographers etc. whom Castro got rid of, that's why they and their families hate him so much, that's why America calls them political exiles, they would shoot you dead for $5 look at Miami."
Yes... That's right. If you live in Miami, and you're a bit brown, you're a gangster.
You're priceless, our Tel!
Jan - I'm not trying to insult you I'm being truthful.
There are tens of thousands of Cubans all over the world.
You haven't heard then about America refusing people entry because of political affiliations careful now.
The Quisling families who persecuted their own people under the corrupt American regime of Batista were released to America and now make up the backbone of the Cubans in Miami who hate Castro, ' the Bay of Pigs' mob. Other Cubans who have gone have been conned into thinking that they would be better off in America, they are now being exploited and turning to crime.
Jackart - Do I know what a totalitarian state is ? Is it where people are locked up and tortured for five years without trial ?
Don't use the royal 'we' about the 3am knock plenty here know about it.
Solzhenitsyn was a great writer. I've often wondered how he managed to survive to become an American millionaire, why didn't they make him disappear ?
I'm glad, truly glad, that I 'disgust' the likes of you.
Jackart - The backbone of the anti Castro Cuban Americans, mainly in Florida, are the crooks and collaborators who grew fat under the American puppet Batista while the Cuban people suffered.
They hate him because he derailed their gravy train, these are the people who invaded at the Bay of Pigs funded by JFK, another crook who's biggest influence was his father a Nazi sympathiser.
I'm happy to let others decide who the racist is.
Not trying to insult me- just being truthful. You are a laugh. Actually, that reminds me. Can you actually give me concrete examples of why I'm a racist? And not just a comment like "It pervades your sentances."
I have heard of America refusing on political and religous grounds. I had not heard that merely being a member of the CND got you banned. I'd like examples please.
Ah, so now its not all of them, just a backbone. Would you care to apolagise to all the Cubans you insulted previously? Indeed would you care to finally answer the question of why Cubans fleeing Cuba have to doso by raft rather than just fly out?
Jan - well done - shorter but, alas, no wiser. The language you use to describe crime among American blacks is IMO racist, you give out figures about terrible numbers of black criminals without attempting to explain why that's the case, that invites people to conclude that being black means you are de facto a criminal, it's racism of a cowardly kind, i.e. you don't have the courage to say it outright.
I'm not giving examples because it really is common knowledge that America is turning people away because of political affiliations.
No I won't apologise to Florida's Cubans it's America who should apologise to them for using them and exploiting them. Read it again I didn't say 'a' backbone I said 'the' backbone.
When was the last time that Cubans arrived on a raft ? When was the last time that Cubans were accepted in to America ? Could it be that America will not accept them ? I've mentioned this before but you seem to keep missing it, there are Cubans all over the world, and why can you not go to Cuba from the USA ? Why do the Americans punish anyone who has any contact with Cuba ?
Shall I examine my racist language then(sorry, this will be long):
"Why are so many blacks in prison? Is it because they commit more crimes? (Yes I am aware that some judiciaries are racist but one can discount the idea of so many of them being racist)"
Not only do I admit racism exists in US courts but there isn't one racist word in there. The connotaion between blacks and crime is not a race issue. It is true that they do commit more crimes, you admitted so yourself. Whether that is because they are black is unlikely. Rather I'd say its the social conditions. As indeed I did say...
"And I don't just mean genetics as thats nonsense, I'd imagine the answer to be based on social issues but you tell me."
Incidentally I haven't given a single set of figures on blacks that I can see.
I'm afraid America's turning away of moderate Left wingers is totally unknown to me. And I'd imagine to most people. They let "Red" Ken in didn't they?
Ah, the Cubans. Well this contains a list of reports that should help you: http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-cub/reports
And people think that Americans are uninformed about other parts of the world. I'm pretty sure that all of your ideas of America have come from television, because I live here and I don't recognize the place you're describing.
America has a lot of inequality of outcome, but surprisingly little inequality of opportunity. I have been poor, am now middle class, and could become upper class if I had more ambition and cared about money. Our poor have color TVs and most have cars. Not all poor people live in trailer parks, they tend to be solidly working class, but you wouldn't know that, would you?
Perhaps you would like to visit some time and actually get to know some Americans. Real ones, not caricatures you saw on TV or read about somewhere.
Jan - you are repeating yourself - you tell me why so many blacks and Hispanics are in American Jails.
Who mentioned 'moderate' left wingers ? You are asked by immigration officers among other things 'are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party' ? Why ?
I don't need reports, I'm perfectly capable of doing my own research.
My understanding of America does not come from TV that's patronising rubbish and does not constitute an argument. ' America has little inequality of opportunity' yes, of course any ghetto black or wetback Hispanic can take the 'opportunity' to have a yacht and a Cadillac, they just can't be bothered can they ?
I have many American friends and relatives and I know through them and others who visit regularly about the place - there are many Americans that I would be proud to call friend but I'm not blind to the down side of the 'dream' it's time that you started to admit the truth
Tel, of course I'm repeating myself, I was proving how wrong your slur that I was racist was. A slur that you have appeared unable to prove. Your current silence on the issue stands testament to that. As I explained in several of my previous posts I believe the black and hispacnic communities have more in jail due to a variety of social factors.
You said it turned back Left wing folks Tel, I assumed that meant, well, all Left wingers. Seeing as thats what Left wing describes. So what you are really saying is that they turn you back if you're a member of a party thats caused more suffering and death than any other political movement before or afterwards. Sounds fairly fine to me. I would still like to ask if they still do this now the threat from Cold War spies is over? And if they do you you throw a few examples my poor lazy way. As that might actually prove something.
Tel its comforting to know that facts and experts are worth nothing in your opinion. After all, what could an expert know?
You don't get it, do you? America is a great nation precisely because it is founded on the opposite ideals to socialism!
Have you ever read the works of that great second-generation Scot (and fluent Gaelic speaker) Thomas Jefferson? You might learn something.
marcus mclean - you don't get it do you ? - read what I have said about the USA and you will see why I confidently say 'America is not ! a great nation'
Wow terry - you have completely changed my mind with one single blog post. I am away out to buy a stars and stripes and some lighter fluid.
Marcus MacLean - I doubt if your mind can be changed - is this it ?
I spent twenty minutes writing a reply, and then this page crashed. I havent' got time to write it again, so here is the short version - socialists beleive in equality. Conservatives (and Thomas Jefferson) beleive in equality of opportuinity.
By the way, do you think it's acceptable to round up Homosexuals and put them in concentration camps? If not, perhaps you should stop being so full of praise for Castro.
marcus maclean - I believe in equality and equality of opportunity that's why I have decided to apply to be the next King of Great Britain.
I'm not aware of homosexuals being rounded up and put in concentration camps in Cuba but, Cuba is not perfect and I have never claimed it was.
It is a huge success though when you consider it's circumstances, it's a tiny third world country which manages to feed, educate, house and provide health care for it's people.
It's mighty neighbour America can't do that so, I like what Fidel has achieved and, I find it quite satisfying that the greatest super power in history is so afraid of Cuba that it won't let its people travel there and it spends inordinate amounts of money trying to destroy it.
Lots of dollars go on anti Cuba propaganda which you seem to be susceptible to.
Actually, Terry, accusations of Homosexuals being put in labour camps were made by those bastions of neoconservatism, Peter Tatchell and Amnesty International:
http://www.galha.org/glh/213/cuba.html
Well, the Nazis did a fantastic job of curbing hyperinflation, in difficult circumstances! It doesn't excuse the evil of the Nazi regime, and neither does a good healthcare system excuse the murder of homosexuals, political dissidents and democrats by Castro and Che.
Even today, Tatchell claims that Cuba's laws are "tantamount to illegality" of homosexuality.
"It is a huge success though when you consider it's circumstances, it's a tiny third world country which manages to feed, educate, house and provide health care for it's people."
Em...no it doesn't. Everyone I know who has actually been to Cuba (have you?) has come back and told me about crumbling buildings, holes in the walls and abject poverty. Meanwhile, your hero Castro is descirbed by the (liberal) NY Times as having a net value greater than the Queen. Maybe he should run for King!
I am succeptible to nobody's propaganda.
Finally, why do you feel the need to be so aggressive to people who post on your blog? I'm always a bit wary of people who can't accept the validity of other people's viewpoints.
Why have you blocked my latest comment? I didn't think there was anything offensive in it - unless you can't stomach something as boring as "evidence" getting in the way of a good harrangue.
marcus maclean - If I have lost one of your posts it was by mistake and I apologise, please resubmit and I will publish.
I've never felt the need to censor anyone including you, if it's fit to be read then it goes in,
Marcus maclean - Cuba has a bad record on the treatment of homosexuals and I have condemned them before for that - I haven't heard of them being rounded up and put in concentration camps though, a wee exaggeration perhaps.
Homosexuals, political dissidents and democrats are murdered in America not Cuba - that statement is just as stupid as yours.
Cuba has better mortality rates than the USA also better literacy rates and health provision, I've been a supporter of Cuba for 30 yrs. and I know plenty of people who have been there, friends and relatives etc. I don't fly and haven't been. Cuba embarrasses the USA.
Castro has been Cuba's leader for many years and has lived and breathed the revolution, rarely seen in anything but combat fatigues and travels in a jeep. He is now ailing and in his eighties so, look again at your stupid jibe about Castro's wealth , how stupid can you get ? where is it ? Where is the yacht ? The cadillacs ? When is he going to start enjoying his wealth ? He's leaving it late is he not ?
I'm aggressive to anyone who talks so much c--- as you.
Marcus maclean - Cuba has a bad record on the treatment of homosexuals and I have condemned them before for that - I haven't heard of them being rounded up and put in concentration camps though, a wee exaggeration perhaps.
Homosexuals, political dissidents and democrats are murdered in America not Cuba - that statement is just as stupid as yours.
Cuba has better mortality rates than the USA also better literacy rates and health provision, I've been a supporter of Cuba for 30 yrs. and I know plenty of people who have been there, friends and relatives etc. I don't fly and haven't been. Cuba embarrasses the USA.
Castro has been Cuba's leader for many years and has lived and breathed the revolution, rarely seen in anything but combat fatigues and travels in a jeep.
He is now ailing and in his eighties so, look again at your stupid jibe about Castro's wealth , how stupid can you get ? where is it ? Where is the yacht ? The cadillacs ? When is he going to start enjoying his wealth ? He's leaving it late is he not ?
I'm aggressive to anyone who talks so much c--- as you.
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